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General >> Problems >> 24v injectors not working?
(Message started by: TNT on Aug 25th, 2011, 11:09pm)

Title: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 25th, 2011, 11:09pm
Hello,

I bought a Scorpio for the engine to put in my mk2 Ford Granada, started it on the car and it worked just fine. Took all the loom out, from headlights to backlights and cut whatever I thought wasn't needed. Now the engine is in my garage, I wired the simplified loom and it won't start.

The PATS LED flashes regularly then goes off (as supposed to) the fuel pump builds up pressure (when key is in II position) then stops, the engine cranks, it does have spark (I took 2 of the leads out to check) but still, it won't start.

The gear selector plug is still in place (I only tried to start it in N or P) and the auto box still attached.

Any suggestions please ?

Also some wires I cut but might need them ?
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/3969/25082011405.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/25082011405.jpg/)
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/7240/25082011404.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/703/25082011404.jpg/)
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6159/25082011403.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/25082011403.jpg/)
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/5130/25082011402.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/25082011402.jpg/)
http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/9175/25082011401.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/571/25082011401.jpg/)

And these wires look rather tired (the copper in some was exposed and I had to redo the insulation on them).
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/343/25082011406.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/148/25082011406.jpg/)

Thank you!

[s][/s]

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 26th, 2011, 7:38am
How do you know the injectors aren't working ??

I'd suggest a code read before doing anything else  :)

HTH Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by martin_rowe on Aug 26th, 2011, 8:43am
each injector should have battery voltage on one wire, the other is switched to earth by the ecu, you can test with a test light.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 26th, 2011, 10:24am
@ Dave: I don't know for sure, I just assumed that considering there is spark it must be the injectors that don't work ...
I live in the countryside and there's no one with an OBD2 reader around.
I will try and buy one.

@ martin: I will check them with the test light.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Matt on Aug 26th, 2011, 10:36am
Where are you located, a few of us on here have readers and im sure would be happy to pop round for a bacon sandwich and a cuppa lol

The Last pic is the engine loom, if they have cracked there and you reckon you injectors arnt working then its almost 100% likly the loom to the injectors have no insulation on them at all as it will be sitting ontop of the block, you'll need to get the loom out and have a good look at it


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 26th, 2011, 12:28pm
Many thanks Matt, but I am from Romania. And the Scorpios are rather rare, so not many people are good at them.

Still, if any of you come to Romania you're welcome to try some traditional drinks  ;D

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 8:44am
Hi TNT, just to get my bearings a few thoughts and questions--

when separating the 24v engine from your donorcar how did you judge what wiring NOT to use and snip off? These may have been just vital to engine operation... now I can think of a few but that would be a shot in the dark.

Did you have knowledge of their exact functions e.g. by the 24v schematics or color-coding tables on the website?
What year was the donor?
Did it have a separate PATS module under the dash?

Now since you mention you have a spark this tells me the CPS/Coilpack/EDIS loop, which operates standalone, is OK. Since this can function without the EEC's control you must now establish whether the three signalwires (PIP, IDM to and from the EDIS, packed in a separate grounded screeningmantle within the loom, do properly connect to the EEC, otherwise the EEC will refuse to operate the injectors.

If you use the proper electric diagram you will see them. Are you using one?

The "engine compartment loom" from the backlights + ABS sensors to front via the ECU, ABS Module and frontsensors contains many vital signalwires. Often these are brittle and cross-shorting around the section passing next to the exhaust manifold.

Does it still have the three-wire fork to the EGR-differential-sensor? And teh Baro-sensor? (usually in bad shape)

Als it connects via the cubic connectors to the second smaller "engine cut off loom" over the cylinders towards the autobox, for instance carrying the groundswitching wires for the injectors (Who are always ON ; come back to that in a minute), as well as the VSS and turbine and temp etc. signals from the autobox towards the EEC-V/ECU... many things can go wrong, giving the impression to the EEC that something important is missing.

Did you leave all wiring to and fro the EDIS-module intact? If e.g. lead 52 is missing (PIP signal) or rotten the engine will never run.

Then there is the infamous effect of the EEC-V hanging/freezing for about 24 hours if you have been working on the wiring of injectors and/or ignition (Coilpack, EDIS, CPS etc.) with battery voltage ON.  

Since the Injectors are always ON on the Plus-side, the ports on the EEC may accidentally acquire a static charge because of open circuitry, which will only leak away in say a day.

Meanwhile it will be not-responsive, you start pulling your hair since you areconvinced everything should logically function, while you are making things worse by intensified and erratic troubleshooting... (my own experience)

My best advice today is leave everything as-is, come back in 24 hrs. If it does not start then subsequently ALWAYS disconnect battery first before starting pulling live plugs, splices and wires, best on the Plus-side.

Longer than expected -- but HTH
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 9:36am
Hi TNT - addendum  

Re:  The gear selector plug is still in place (I only tried to start it in N or P) and the auto box still attached.

What do you mean here - do you have the donor 24v engine and its original autobox still united on say a rig? ( or a horse, what's it called?)

Or did you build it into the acceptor car already? If so, what sensors are connected? What autobox? Donor's or acceptor's? (They are different!)

Is it the original gear selector plus wiring, the infamous "fuel-cut-off-loom" going over the cylinders towards the ABS area and its two cubic connectors for the "engine compartment loom"?  

Just making sure here I understand.

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 27th, 2011, 10:24am
Hello Cosray, thank you for taking the time to help me.

I'll try to answer as much as I can:

When I took the loom out I put a sticker on each and every plug I took out and wrote on it (e.g. "ABS sensor", "driver airbag", "left-front door" etc.). Then when all the wires came out I stretched them on the floor and followed the wires from the plugs to wherever they went and cut them, except for those related to the engine (or at least I thought I wouldn't affect them) A/C and power steering, which I plan transferring to the Granada.

I haven't used any electrical scheme as I'm not very good at reading them.

The donor was made in 1998.
Yes, it has a separate PATS module.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/8773/photo0020l.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/593/photo0020l.jpg/)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8234/photo0019b.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/171/photo0019b.jpg/)


I looked carefully at the 3 wires going from EDIS to ECU but they don't seem brittle like those on the engine and didn't go any further cutting the screeningmantle as I'm not sure how I could redo that insulation (should I cut it too?). I also checked them with the test light and they are not interrupted.

A friend gave me a diagram showing those 3 wires.

Are any of these EGR-differential-sensor or Baro-sensor?
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/7282/20082011400.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/20082011400.jpg/)
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3633/20082011399.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/580/20082011399.jpg/)
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/5659/20082011398.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/20082011398.jpg/)

Yes, all the wires to and from the EDIS are intact.

I only cut and tried different options with the battery disconnected.

The original autobox is attached to the engine and a section of the exhaust (that I cut after the second pair of lambdas).

the original gear selector is still in place (although I cut some wires that came from Cruise Control - orange box).
http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3987/photo0021d.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/9/photo0021d.jpg/)

"fuel-cut-off-loom" going over the cylinders -- don't know where this is , I disconnected the 2 big square plugs by undoing the bolt in each of them, and I also can't see much of the loom on the top of the engine so didn;t get my fingers there yet.

I also took this out
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/2885/photo0017sa.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/photo0017sa.jpg/)

Thank you!

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 11:24am
Hi TNT - do you have a name or did I miss it?

Let's go one by one while having a sandwich.

If you cannot find the "fuel-cut-off-loom"(wrongly translated from German) then you have found your fault... it is quite necessary and it is the link between autobox and "engine compartment loom" and EEC-V/ECU/PCM.

It is the upper part in teh FORD Parts catalogue; see link

Here's a link to my relevant pics; have a good look at the diagram for the harnesses and the looms themselves.

http://bit.ly/oFQWOS

So before I go on rambling - pls indicate whether you DO have the "fuel-cut-off-loom" in place. It is about 2 meters long, contains a box for the injector splices (suspect!) and runs over the engine top along very hot spaces so very suspect.

Pls advise -

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 11:36am
the original gear selector is still in place (although I cut some wires that came from Cruise Control - orange box).


"fuel-cut-off-loom" going over the cylinders -- don't know where this is , I disconnected the 2 big square plugs by undoing the bolt in each of them, and I also can't see much of the loom on the top of the engine so didn;t get my fingers there yet.

I also took this out


========================

The orange box normally sits on the floor next to the heater and is essential for running the engine. A FORD DEaler once forgot to reconnect it, could not start the engine for a day and then remembered.

The cruise control section is essential as it it governed by the CCM - the big black box on photo over the EEC-V.

Now this module performs a number of periodical selfchecks to establish whether it is still connected to a car and its sensors and reports to the EEC.

When it misses components or other vital parts it inhibits - in your case - the PATS module, stopping teh engine. That could be a clue.


Read here:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm

When you disconnected the two cubic connectors and follow the loom you will find yourself over the cylinders and injectors, on your way to the autobox.  Very hot area, very suspect for looms. Do inspect the many splices; they are crimped wires.

So far for now - tbc

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 12:10pm
The donor was made in 1998.
Yes, it has a separate PATS module.


It is essential that ALL Pats wires are connected the way they should. In case of doubt I have the confidential electrical diagram for you.


[i][i][i]I looked carefully at the 3 wires going from EDIS to ECU but they don't seem brittle like those on the engine and didn't go any further cutting the screeningmantle as I'm not sure how I could redo that insulation (should I cut it too?). I also checked them with the test light and they are not interrupted.
A friend gave me a diagram showing those 3 wires. [/i][/i][/i]


In order to correctedly test them you must disconnect the 108-pin-connector from the EEC-V. (Disconnect battery first, if not the EEC will hang!) and from EDIS (12-pin)

Then locate each wire by colorcode OR pinnumbering from the schematic and then

a) test end-to-end for interrupts  (rare) and
b) test for resistance against Ground and against Plus (should be well over 100kOhm >  Infinite) and
c) test among themselves for crossconnect since they sit in a metal shielded cable


Are any of these EGR-differential-sensor or Baro-sensor?

Yes, correct. The engine will run without them connected however between 40-150 km/h the EGR circuit: Sensor, Valve are a must for smooth running and power.



Yes, all the wires to and from the EDIS are intact.

I only cut and tried different options with the battery disconnected.


Here's the schematic for the EDIS .
http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/EDIS_system_diagram.png

EDIS functional Description:
http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/~rockledge/RangerPictureGallery/DIS_EDIS.htm

One important thought:  have you installed & connected the transceivermodule that fits around the key-lock-barrel, using a proper key with the red RFID in it?
Without it or badly connected the engine will never run.

If not functional it will immobilise the engine through PATS and CCM.
(BTW The CCM is the black wide box with big connector and loom over the EEC in your photo.)


Finished my sandwich - let me know how you go --

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 27th, 2011, 2:36pm
Hi - my name is Titus

As it' said a picture is worth a thousand words, this is the current mess:

general view:
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1677/imag0129zf.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/143/imag0129zf.jpg/)
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/5204/imag0092a.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/153/imag0092a.jpg/)
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/3201/imag0122r.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/imag0122r.jpg/)

loom:
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/7206/imag0127yx.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/imag0127yx.jpg/)
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/7830/imag0126p.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/imag0126p.jpg/)
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2566/imag0125eq.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/imag0125eq.jpg/)
http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5051/imag0124b.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/11/imag0124b.jpg/)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/75/imag0123kq.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/imag0123kq.jpg/)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 27th, 2011, 2:37pm
details:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5877/imag0130pe.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/imag0130pe.jpg/)
http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/8886/imag0131d.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/imag0131d.jpg/)
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/9356/imag0132s.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/30/imag0132s.jpg/)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/1148/imag0093p.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/imag0093p.jpg/)
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5313/imag0094g.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/imag0094g.jpg/)
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2968/imag0095p.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/imag0095p.jpg/)
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1505/imag0096yd.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/834/imag0096yd.jpg/)
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4382/imag0097vd.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/imag0097vd.jpg/)
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/999/imag0098t.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/imag0098t.jpg/)
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9608/imag0099kq.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/42/imag0099kq.jpg/)
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/1055/imag0100es.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/imag0100es.jpg/)
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1619/imag0101k.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/imag0101k.jpg/)
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/8531/imag0102ox.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/imag0102ox.jpg/)
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6151/imag0103a.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/imag0103a.jpg/)
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7384/imag0104dt.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/imag0104dt.jpg/)
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2585/imag0105k.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/imag0105k.jpg/)
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/8223/imag0106ja.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/imag0106ja.jpg/)
http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/333/imag0107l.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/imag0107l.jpg/)
http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1729/imag0108k.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/651/imag0108k.jpg/)
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7250/imag0109cp.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/imag0109cp.jpg/)
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5674/imag0110az.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/imag0110az.jpg/)
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/8016/imag0111w.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/imag0111w.jpg/)
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/5900/imag0112jk.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/508/imag0112jk.jpg/)
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/9345/imag0113cs.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/835/imag0113cs.jpg/)
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/9050/imag0114yw.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/imag0114yw.jpg/)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5669/imag0115h.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/imag0115h.jpg/)
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2307/imag0116g.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/imag0116g.jpg/)
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8633/imag0117jp.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/imag0117jp.jpg/)
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/4710/imag0118ye.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/202/imag0118ye.jpg/)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 27th, 2011, 2:38pm
what I cut:
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5866/imag0119i.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/13/imag0119i.jpg/)
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2505/imag0120h.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/imag0120h.jpg/)
http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/5449/imag0121yh.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/832/imag0121yh.jpg/)
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/8900/imag0128z.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/20/imag0128z.jpg/)

I didn't cut any wires that went over the top of the engine so the "fuel-cut-off-loom" should be all in place.

Some members on fordpower said the orange box is not needed so I'm confused.

I have also cut the CCM  ;D is that bad ?

The round key reader is in place and I only tried to start it with the Scorpio key. At first the PATS led wouldn't go off, but then I followed a blue/purple wire going from PATS' green plug through another plug and then joining other purple wires. And as I wired this one to battery + , the led went off after reading the key, the fuel pump started and then stopped after building up pressure and the engine cranked from the original contact. Still, it didn't start.

So I guess PATS is all wired up and working ?

How important is the CCM, and will the engine run without it (by joining some wires to bypass it or something) ?

I will ask someone to look for resistance or crossconect between those 3 wires from EDIS to ECU as I don't have the right tool for the job.

Thanks again!
And sorry for mutliple-post, the site won't let me post just one that long.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 4:22pm
Hi Titus,

thx for all your pictures... it may look like a mess but I am certain there is system in your madness...;-)


So I guess PATS is all wired up and working ?

Apparentlly it detects and confirms the key, which is an interaction with PATS and EEC-V vice-versa. The keycode is in EEC-V, EEC-V releases the signal to the fuelpumprelay but the handling of access devices is in CCM.

Now the CCM is essential as it - among others - controls multiplex AND opening AND closing AND Alarm. In a FAIL-situation a certain signal is NOT given to the EEC-V or, rather the other way round: EEC-V (checking periodically all components in its Component Monitor, software) fails to read a GOOD condition signal from CCM.

Read HERE:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/multiplex.htm

So cutting away the CCM (you may be the first to do that, something FORD engineers never incorporated in their design) I am afraid it suggests to PATS and EEC-V the car is being hijacked... its various comforting signals to the EEC-V are missing... and ONE is enough to inhibit further action, so no joy on the Injectors.

I know for certain that most Scorpio & EEC-V related components do regular awareness checks i.e. establishing they are still connected to their relatives , getting the right voltages within certain ranges etc.

I would therfore advise to certainly and accurately reconnect CCM.

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 27th, 2011, 5:12pm
I’ve not looked at the diagrams & have no idea if this applies but sometimes power/earth feeds come from a ring supply linked to a pin on unrelated items – so cutting a plug could cause a loss of a + or - feed.
(I’ve not read the posts that carefully so apologies if Ray has mentioned this).

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 27th, 2011, 5:56pm
I bought an OBD 2 interface that should arrive next week and then we'll see what's what ... hopefully.

I'm still learning about that CCM as I had the impression it had nothing to do with the engine.
I understand what you say, Ray, that any faulty reading of the ECU could lead to a non-functional engine, but I'm not sure it is the absence of the CCM that could cause that.

@ Tompion : that's what happend to the PATS. It needed a feed from a plug that was dead after skimming the loom.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 5:58pm
Tompion, good you mention this.
In fact if you look at Scorpio's Groundplan you will notice yards of cable cost was saved by FORD's production engineers grounding several seemingly unrelated compnonents.

A bit of simple damage and welding on the chassis could therfore cause havoc in the electronics.

So once you take a live body of a chassis, components and a processor apart and reassemble it in another environment this may introduce some funny errors.

I think this holds true for Scorpio as we know it - since really it behaves like a computer on wheels and therefore had a raised vulnerability for un-designed and unpredictable sitautions - such as dedrading  brittle isolatuion of wires and strands.

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2011, 10:28pm
Hi Titus -

I have studied your pics in detail. I enlarged them, downloaded them and magnified them where applicable on a good viewer.

General View


Frontal pic - many undefined loose/cut wires

Sidepic - "fuel cut-off-loom" connectors look good - kat connectors lying about?

Airco pipes loose - where is Aircon pump and related pieces? Control unit in dash?

EGR differentiel tubes sticking out

Loom pics 1-5

2 Fuseboxes not being complete... where is the big multiplug? Relays?

Timer/gong wires cut off

Undefined loose strands pic 1 & 2

Pic 3 very worrying 4 loose wires from multiplug on EEC-V

Pic 4 one loose end w/ grommet?
Vacuum control unit looks OK
One loose Grounding eyelet

Pic 5
Showing big green single/double fan relay
Where's double fanunit?
2 undefined grounding eyelts

Details

Good shot of "fuel ct-off-loom" running between cylinders over engine toward autobox - very suspect because of heat

Good shot of EDIS- wiring looks OK - however must clean connector inside out

Baro unit and vacuum unit OK

EGR unit looks OK

Very worrying - 4 cut/loose wires on EEC-V

Internal Timer/Gong cut/loose wires?

What I cut - worrying

Pic 1

I can see the complete CCM with partly incomplete/cut wiring, Radio Interface Unit, and lenghty, undefined, possibly radio wiring

Pic 2

ABS Module connector w heatresistant tubing & wiring, probably cut off from main engine comparttment loom, essentail Red Relay from interior,

Pic 3

Undefined mess, at least one Radio connector,  one big groundig eyelet, lampholder ashtray?

Pic 4

Airbag Sensor Unit + wiring towards CCM and Steeringwheel Clocksptings... rather hazardous...  lamphol;ders, connectors from dash unit? Where is dash/instrumentcluster? Needed for Cruise Control

================

So in all - I would say because of all the erratic cuts in the looms to me this looks like a minefield - at best a serious headache - for proper operation.

Especially the cut/loose wires on the EEC-V connector are worrying - using the electric diagram of course with some effort all are retraceable of course but I think you said you do not read diagrams yourself?

And the CCM cut off, ABS MOdule floating, Airbag loose - the EEC-V will be going round in circles I am afraid. But perhaps you are lucky and get it all toghether.

Shrewdness, luck & persistence - those are the ingredients I think.

Any other thoughts on this - all you folks out there?
Bedtime here -

Ciao for now -
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 27th, 2011, 11:18pm
Since for example the engine pictures don’t appear to show these:

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/343/25082011406.th.jpg

plugged into these:

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4382/imag0097vd.th.jpg

I suppose we need to see pictures of the set up ready for testing, otherwise we’re just assuming it’s been done.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 28th, 2011, 8:52am
I took the loom off the engine to take better shots as it is even messier when it's all plugged up. I will do some other pictures with the loom on the engine.

According to a friend with Microcat the cut wires from ECU are:
Pin 4 -> ABS
Pin 10 -> dashboard
Pin 79 -> dashboard
Pin 86 -> dashboard

Cosray, thank you again for keeping an eye on this, but we need to know for sure what is needed and what is not to get the engine running. I don't like the idea of putting everything back

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 28th, 2011, 9:33am
Hi Titus,

just a quick one before church  ;-)

Just assume you get the engine running and the autobox correctly shifting gears etc. etc. which we all hope -

- does a post 1994 BOB 24v engine fit a Granada engineroom physically? How to support it? Hoses, coolant, double fanunit,
Radiators? And does the autobox properly connect to the propshaft in the correct ratio and length?

Not being a mechanicsman I wondered has this been done before?

Curious,

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 28th, 2011, 10:33am
Hi Titus,

putting one and one toghether now.
Donorcar is 1998 with separate PATS module which is unusual as the PATS was integrated in the EEC-V since c. 1996 AFAIK. The EEC-V after this date has a different pinout as well.

Since you took this combination in working order from the donorcar - so be it.

Subsequently I checked my wiring diagrams on FORD TIS009, searched for your loose wires and pins.

The wires you mentioned cut from the EEC-V connect to the orange Instrument Interface Module (A35) next to CCM and EEC-V. They are vital for collaboration with the PATS module.

See here as well:  http://bit.ly/r2d2k5 for PATS environment.

The CCM is vital in the Anti-Theft System, which was a big thing at the time of introduction. You may not need its other versatile CCM-functionality but its PATS functionality is breached without it being connected.
Read here and you will see why: http://bit.ly/popKdn click  Anti-Theft Alarm

From my own documentation then it reads:  "The transmission hardware unit (A40) consists of the Transmission Speed Sensor (TSS), the Transmission Oil Temperature (TOT) sensor and five solenoids. The PCM (A147) provides outputs to the transmission through pins 1, 53, 54 (pins 72 and 80 with passive anti-theft system (PATS)) to control the shifting operations of the transmission.
The stop lamp switch (N15) sends a "brake applied" signal to pin 92 of the PCM (A147). This data is used to adjust the engine operations during deceleration.
Pins 10, 79 and 80 of the PCM (A147) lead to the instrument interface module (A35)."


That is why - as some time ago in my own case, after heater matrix replacement - the techy forgot the connector on the orange module and searched a day for a not-starting-engine fault.

My best advice for today is
a) reconnect the wiring bundle + A35 (as in your pic) to the EEC-V and
b) recopnnect the CCM cluster
c) turn the key

HTH,
Ray




Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 28th, 2011, 12:44pm
My Granada is fitted with a 2.8 cologne engine and T9 gearbox. The BOB engine is Cologne-based so it will fit on the mounts and also fit the T9 gearbox (I don't want to keep the autobox from the Scorpio). I'll also keep the original 2.8 radiator and fit it with the Scorpio fans (if possible).

This is the current setup and behavior. The difference to when I unplugged the loom to take the first set of pictures is that now I couldn't hear the fuel pump going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Eg_ujkPx7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Eg_ujkPx7c

I will try and rewire the CCM and A35 ...


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 28th, 2011, 3:06pm
Hi Titus,

wherabouts are you in Rumania? In your video I do hear farmingnoises ;-)

Your video is great. It shows the LED to dim when you turn the key; then extinguish, as if some action is expected but not happening.  

That is where the CCM and the A35 functionality should come in I think.

Has the starterengine run at all?

Should the engine start are you not worried it will hop & bounce through your garage?

And the sound may be deafening...

If the BOB fits that's great. Now I suggest to get it to work in its original configuration first please. Following that you might swap parts and components, knowing originally it worked.

Once you swap the A4LDE autobox for a manual T9 I am not sure what the software in your EEC-V, which was customised & programmed to control an autobox 24v environment, will react...

The engine management is designed to expect a number of relevant inputsignals from the box such as VSS, solenoids, pressure, convertor engaged, temp, turbine... lacking those, how is it going to cope?

Very challenging!

Later,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 28th, 2011, 3:58pm
Info on the manual conversion here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1285441192

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 28th, 2011, 4:14pm
... indeed, very challenging...

Now, our toilets fill themselves automatically, our watches are automatic, your dishwasher is...

Losing one hand for driving, nosepoking, waving at birds, smoking, texting, caressing...

Why on earth would anyone desire to stir in a manual gearbox?

;-)

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 28th, 2011, 4:41pm
As I said in one of my posts above I am in the countryside now, at my grandparents' house. This is where I have the space and tools I need. So, funny noises may occur  ;D.

The starter worked for a few times as it should by turning the key, but then decided to stop.

I would love to hear that deafening noise :))

I kept the autobox for now to make sure it's not its absence causing the problem.

Will try to put the CCM and A35 back, although I'm not really sure how.

Thanks Tompion for the link, I came across it some time ago and kept it carefully in my bookmarks.

Can anyone tell me how the LED should act when turning the key in each position ?

Cheers

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 28th, 2011, 6:19pm
Hi Titus,

 - just curious where on earth in Rumania I am trying helping a FORD compadre to get his BOB turning... a town? A village?



LED CODES - HERE:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm

HTH

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 28th, 2011, 10:25pm
:)) I didn't realize you asked for the exact location.

I'm located in Romania, Bihor (that's the zone, we call it "judetz"), Avram Iancu (that's the village). And you are welcome if it will ever happen to be around.

I've seen those LED codes before but, judging by them, mine works correct.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 29th, 2011, 8:36am
Hi Titus,

is this the place? http://bit.ly/nxz9xq
Rather rural, it looks. Some nice countryside!

Has the starterengine ran at all - following the extinguishing of the LED?

When the EEC-V is still easily accessible you might measure the switching to ground of the injectors by hooking up a voltmeter between pins 90 BK/YE - 20 BK/BU - 70 BK/WH - 95 BK/OG - 93 BK/GN - 94 BK/RD and ground.When the startrengine turns the EEC-V should fire each of the injectors in a rather slow sequence so you could monitor their pin voltages on the EEC-V ports go from +12v (OFF) to zero (ON). Teh engine will idle on four!

That would prove the EEC-V is responding to CPS, EDIS and PIP signals and proceesing them. Next step would to check if the driving signals arrive at the suspect "fuel cut off loom" running over the injectors and into the injectors.

Of course a good working OBD2-lead and OBD-software will get you on your way however, there is a learning curve.

Is the data-outlet-connector still intact?

Speaking of ground - Have you checked all ground wires? In a car they are usually bundled and connected against various Grounding positions on beams etc.; see "Ground distribution" on the TIS.

Now that those are lacking perhaps some functions are "floating", not grounded  i.e. not working or even influencing each other because of Eddy-currents.

HTH
Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 29th, 2011, 9:18am
Hi Ray,

Nope, this is the place (didn't even know it had a Wikipedia page) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avram_Iancu,_Bihor

I'll wait for the OBD2 interface for now, as it should arrive in 3-4 days.

The starter  motor did function after I supplied 12+ to that PATS wire, but stopped working normally after me redoing the insulation on the wires that go from the square plugs.

Do you know the ECU pins to the injectors? Or better, the color codes ?

Diagnose plug: 3 wires are cut: white/blue (not sure where it came from) and grey/red + blue/red twisted together that went to the doors (if I remember correctly).

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/9508/imag0143r.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/imag0143r.jpg/)



Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 29th, 2011, 9:22am
Hi Titus,

EEC-V pins: read two post up + colorcodes

Here's the directory for all relevant diagrams; follow Diagnostic System, Data Link Connector Pinning for details.

http://bit.ly/popKdn


You will notice that most multiplexed and regular units feed their combined signals to one of each pins in the DLC. Since they are coded the OBD software can determine quality of operation of each component.

Notice the PATS Link grouped on pin 2 and 10!

Cutting away wires in a highly complex computer on wheels as Scorpio is usually not left unpunished I am afraid.

Please also look up & print the .pdf for GROUND DISTRIBUTION.

This will tell you what components are supposed to be gropunded together. Lacking a proper chassis at the moment you may find that ground wires are bungling in the air or have been cut away. It only takes one...

Design engineers were commissioned to save on wiring - especially heavy gauge ground wiring, utilising the chassis as "common ground".

The battery NEG therefore is connected with a fat cable somewhere near the firewall AND the engine AND two smaller wires for the electronics groups.

These two smaller wires in an assembled Scorpio have been a source for trouble when not connected or missing to the battery.

So serious question - how many wires/cables in your current situation come toghether on the battery NEG?

Do make sure CCM and A35 comes on board again and do make sure all of those + EEC-V have proper grounds.

You might consider using 3 meters of thick electricy cable such as the standard green/yellow copper cable and running it from the battery NEG along your parts on the floor, just stripping its mantle where needed fro a ground. In your pictures I noticed various grounding eyelets "floating". Those would need to go on.

So much for today - HTH!

Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 29th, 2011, 10:51am
Some of the information you require is on the main site but can be tricky to find – search at the bottom of this page:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/index.html

Also try here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/index2.htm

You may find this useful for pinouts:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/24vlooms.htm

Although this is for the EECIV, it does have the pinout for the OBD2 Datalink:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/star.htm

Sometimes you get better results when searching on the homepage by entering broad searches like data or manual (which comes up with a lot of the PDF’s).

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 29th, 2011, 11:28am
Now you guys have really got me confused  ???

I haven't had my engine running yet, but I have had the EECV and PATS rigged up on the bench and got the right signs from it that it will run when all wiring is finished.

I did NOT connect Cruise Module or CCM, and there is no strategy in the EECV for monitoring faults on these items, the only slighly related code is "Theft Detected" at which point it will shut down the engine.

A lot of us tried tests on running cars, and found that the engine will run for about 5 seconds without a PATS module connected to pins 15 / 16 on EECV, and then it shuts down.

With my "simplified PATS wiring" (11 wires in all), I did not get a "Theft Detected" Code.

TNT you have a pm  ;)

Let me know how you get on, because I will be wiring the engine on the Puma soon and if the CCM and Cruise really is needed then I think I'll just scrap the EECV and go Emerald or somesuch, which would be a shame as I've put so much time and effort into getting this to work, and up until now I was convinced that I had it sussed  ???

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Mike H on Aug 29th, 2011, 11:48am
That is very interesting Dave! If you got the electrickery to work properly on the bench .. ?


on 08/28/11 at 15:06:03, Cosray wrote:
Once you swap the A4LDE autobox for a manual T9 I am not sure what the software in your EEC-V, which was customised & programmed to control an autobox 24v environment, will react...


An auto Scorpio's engine management computer also controls the autobox, as regards gear changing, so we are guessing that the software for manual version is quite different ~ unless Matt knows differently? ;D

Strongly suggest you try getting it going 'as standard' (still with own autobox attached and connected), else could be you may NEVER get it going. Or use completely different aftermarket electrical system as Dave mentioned.

All off the top of my head this....

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Mike H on Aug 29th, 2011, 11:53am
For example, as I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), there are 4 solenoids & 2 speed sensors in the box, and presume they are tested at switch on, if there's a fault (as in, they are missing) it won't like it ;D

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 29th, 2011, 1:05pm
I intended to do this conversion in 2 steps:

1- get the engine running with the original autobox and simplified loom
2- make the manual conversion

As I haven't managed to finish step 1 successfully, there's no point thinking of the problems step 2 implies for the moment.

Now I began studying this site carefully ( which I discovered contains way more information and detail I would have imagined) and I ended up with the conclusion (and please correct me if I got it all wrong)  that CCM can stand

either for Central Control Module (which is the black box that I ditched) that appears to be related only to comfort actions (central locking, power windows, seat adujustment etc.)
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/multiplex.htm

or for Comprehensive Component Monitor which is a software that the EECV-PCM uses making sure vital sensors are in place and work well.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm

So the black box might not be needed afterall.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Mike H on Aug 29th, 2011, 1:40pm
Yes "Comprehensive Component Monitor" is a diagnostic program run by the EECV.

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ccmonitor.htm

Central Control Module also includes the alarm stuff and sensors monitoring, so bear in mind that the system is deliberately designed to be difficult to run the engine if all conditions are not correct, that is to say, steal the car ;D

But Dave2302 might have a clue about cheating it.


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 29th, 2011, 1:44pm
Hi Titus - just have time for a short one.

Your conversion plan is logically perfect and sound - way to go!

In your current setup though you have too many disturbing uncertainties, so your one goal must be to get the engine running - and running well at that.

IMHO there's no means to properly test it when running without real load, prop, differential, wheels on the raod, kats! LAmbda's! w/o all the autobox sensor's feedback... where's your MAF/ Missed it.

Yes you are right on  the CCM confusion. However, the software CCM is in the EEC-V anyway so no bother to you however... once you hook up the OBD2-stuff you will read many DTC's for missing sensors, processes, lacking components, out-of-range voltages etc.

Now these DTC's ultimately might cause the EEC-V to decide to go into LOS - Limited OPerating Strategy - which, in an assembled Scorpio, would just get you home at 30 km/h max.

On the Testbench/floor this might be an extra complication. However LOS will not inhibit startup so LOS cannot be the current inhibitor for starting the engine.

I am convinced the EEC-V needs the CCM balckbox for a numer of reasons I explaned, Particularly since you have an excternal PATS box with which it interfcaces.

I am more and more tempted to pull the CCM on my own 24v Cossie (in excellent condition) and see what happens - this might take until the cvoming weekand though.

Since I am a professional electronics engineer I shiver at seeing loose wires whilst I am equally positive not all are needed - but which one..?

Once you establish through simple LAmptest or Voltmeter on the EEC-V pins whether the EEC-V, while running the starterengine, switches the injectors ON/OFF by grounding their leads, you are halfway there!

HTH

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Mike H on Aug 29th, 2011, 1:45pm
Which reminds me most instances I have seen on here about trying to run a Scorpio engine outside of its normal environment mostly come down to overriding the anti-theft system(s), IIRC

EDIT: that was an appendix to my previous post, nothing to do with the above ;D





Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 29th, 2011, 1:49pm

on 08/29/11 at 13:45:50, Mike H wrote:
Which reminds me most instances I have seen on here about trying to run a Scorpio engine outside of its normal environment mostly come down to overriding the anti-theft system(s), IIRC


Quite true Mike - however AFAIK that was WITH a functioning CCM, which is part of the alarm setup.

Overriding the PATS function - see my earlier diagram provided - disables the alarm condition in the CCM, stops the horn sounding and lights flashing AND giving the Go-ahead to the EEC-V... so it starts driving the injectors in time.

The designers created two inhibitors for an alarm condition:

1) starterengine inhibitor relay - easy. Hardware. Just bridge relaypins 87 & 30 and you are done.
2) PATS and CCM and EEC-V - not easy. Software. On alarm condition the combination of PATS (can be tricked by overriding) and CCM (cannot be tricked) tells the EEC-V to inhibit injector drivers.

So, once you take away the CCM out of the configuation, the EEC-V will NOT get its release signal.

Hope I am wrong but meanwhile...

Can any of our contributors pull his CCM plug for TEST? (I will but not before the weekend)

IF that engine starts and the car runs well as before WITHOUT the CCM THEN Titus could eliminate the missing CCM as a fault condition and proceed with the other clues.

Curious, Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 29th, 2011, 6:26pm

on 08/29/11 at 11:48:45, Mike H wrote:
That is very interesting Dave! If you got the electrickery to work properly on the bench .. ?


Firstly @ Cosray...........

I think you may be confused over your CCM's LOL.
The CCM (Central Control Module in a big black box), is as far as I know not neccesary for the running of the Engine.
However, your Link earlier is referring to "CCM" (Comprehensive Component Monitors), which are not a module in a box but are part of the Software programmed into the EECV ECU.  

Comprehensive Component Monitors have nothing to do with the Central Control Module !! ;)

The problems some folk experience with a non start when different modules are disconnected in a Scorpio is because the earths and a lot of the reference +ves are run in a "ring main" type fashion.

When the EECV is not in a Scorpio (Multiplex) environment, provided it is connected with all the right earths and +ves, and provided it receives a digital signal on pin 16 from the PATS module, it SHOULD run the engine OK.

Also not all fault codes will put it into LOS, only certain items like gearbox pressure regulator, Lambda sensors etc will flag a LOS situation, but even then as you have rightly said, the engine will still run, although not very well  ;)

@ Mike..................
 
What I did was to wire the EECV and the PATS up on the bench with the Snap On Solus connected to the diagnostic socket, and most of the engine sensors connected, +ves and -ves etc etc.
Yes there were transmission and EGR codes, but I'm not worried about them at this stage, I'll eliminate them later  ;)

Fooling the EECV into thinking it has an auto box fitted is easy and well documented by Matt on this site, and I will be using pretty much the same method to fool it, albeit a circuit board in a little black box as an 'add on' module  ;)

The goal at this stage was to get the PATS and EECV communicating correctly, and then check this by introducing errors such as "wrong key" and "PATS not connected to ECU", "Key Reader not connected" etc.
This all worked a treat, flagging up the correct codes when induced, which leads me to beleive that my simplified system is working properly.

At the same time a couple of other fellas tested their running cars by disconnecting various wires and thats how we found what does and doesn't need connecting at the PATS module.

As has already been said, PATS disables the Scorpio Starter Motor by cutting the earth to the Starter Relay, which also travels via the Inhibitor Switch on the gearbox.  As my car is a Manual Gearbox I have simply earthed the Pumas Starter Relay as I don't need an Engine Cranking inhibit  ;)

Now it may very well be that the Alarm on the Scorpio triggers a "Theft" situation, but AFAIK if it isn't there it can't do that  ;D

Also AFAIK the Central Control Module will not be needed, that will inhibit the Fuel Pump and Open the Central Locking in a Crash, when the Fuel Cut Off Inertia Switch operates, but I'm not using an Inertia Switch, it would be very silly to fit one in a Stage Rally Car LOL.

I will stand corrected though  ;D ;D ;D

But I did have some very reliable information from a friend of a friend, (no Names no Packdrill), who is a guy who is VERY knowledgeable on the intricacies of PATS on Fords  ;)

He suggested that although the Alarm and the PATS share the same LED they are 2 stand alone systems  ;)

The proof of the pudding (or not, as the case may be), will be if my EECV BOB in my Puma fires up and runs fine LOLOLOL, (or doesn't),  ;D ;D ;D

I have been so busy lately I haven't put a spanner on the car in 6 weeks now  :( and all it wants is a week, 2 at the most, of my time to install the wiring loom and fuel pipes, then it will be ready to start and run, and I can send the rolling shell away to my mate for Paintwork.

Whilst it's being painted  I will check over the engine and gearbox, including a few mods, (ARP Rod bolts, tensioners, shells, in the engine, and bearigs and synchros and a few tweaks in the gearbox).............both were good running when removed from the donor cars, but as I'm going to be ragging it rotten around the Scottish Forests, a quick once over is good insurance  ;)

So sometime in the next couple of months I'll hopefully be in a position to dedicate a week or so to getting the car running and I will know if all my hard work on the PATS was worth it LOL  

So, in conclusion, although the CCM and Cruise may cause problems if it is not connected in a Scorpio, I don't think it will cause grief in a stand alone situation  ;)

Hope all this rambling is of some use,

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 29th, 2011, 8:33pm
Hi Dave,

thank you for your elucidations - yes the diff between Hardware CCM and Software CCM is completely clear to me, having gone at length to describe and distinguish between them to possible laymen before.

Now as I understand your BOB engine, outside the old Scorpio corpus, is not firing either despite some very heavy investment in time, knowledgeable friends and labour.

Why is that?

The proof of the pudding (or not, as the case may be), will be if my EECV BOB in my Puma fires up and runs fine LOLOLOL, (or doesn't),

Now since only result counts here - have you installed your old CCM (I mean Hardware here) or not?

From my inderstanding the CCM transmits an enduring "no theft" signal to the EEC-V unless there's an Alram condition or an important component missing.

You see, all's desigend around an "interrogation alarm" all the time requesting for acknowledgement feedback. When "not present" or "not available" or "not functioning" or "no signal" an alarm condition is set.

When however the complete CCM is missing the EEC-V cannot but inhibit its injector driver ports.

The simple answer is: reinstall the CCM (Hardware) not forgetting the A35 module as well!

BTW Has any of our readers and faithfull followers had the audacity and chance to pull the CCM connector from a well-perfroming 24v?  I will during the coming weekend -

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 30th, 2011, 10:23am

on 08/29/11 at 20:33:33, Cosray wrote:
Hi Dave,
Now as I understand your BOB engine, outside the old Scorpio corpus, is not firing either despite some very heavy investment in time, knowledgeable friends and labour.
Why is that?
HTH
Ray


Hi Ray,

No mate, my engine was running perfectly when removed from the Scorpio, and I HAVE NOT tried to start it in the Puma yet  ;)

This is because I started with a stripped Puma shell to do all the chassis mods required to install all the 4x4 Sierra running gear 24V BOB, and roll cage, seats extinguisher system etc etc required for MSA Stage rally regs.

At present there is NO wiring at all in the car, and when I get a bit of spare time soon I will be reinstalling the Puma loom, and then adding the 24V engine wiring from the EECV plug forwards to the engine block connecter.

This will include the addition of a home built module to make the EECV think it has a Auto gearbox connected  ;)

When I have done other vehicles such as Sierras with BOB we have always used EECIV from the Granada Cosworth plus an RPM Window Switch to operate the VIS  ;)

Because the Puma was an EECV managed car to start with I decided to see if I could get this to work with the BOB EECV as all the dash functions, relays, fuses etc are all there in the Puma loom and fuse box, so apart from the PATS issue it should be easier.

With what I wired up on the bench, and monitored with a decent scanner capable of Live Data (which ordinary OBD readers are not), I have good reason to think my wiring etc will work....................

The only point I made above was I cannot say it does work for DEFINITE as I cannot try to physically start the engine yet  ;)

"The proof of the pudding is in the eating" LOL

From my exhaustive testing on the bench I am convinced it will work, WITH MY WIRING, without a Central Control Module, but like I said, I'm not convinced that pulling the CCM Plug on a running Scorpio will prove much, as the wiring on a Scorpio does definitely interact with other components ;)

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 30th, 2011, 10:48am
Hi Dave, that's an interesting article...

So you used an EEC-IV to control a BOB..?
How did you tell its program to behave well for an engine it could not have known yet when it was born?

Or was it an EEC-IV for a BOA that just happened to behave similarly and well, in spite of those two engines being very different?

I am truly amazed and impressed...

Regards,
Ray



Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 30th, 2011, 10:59am

on 08/28/11 at 15:06:03, Cosray wrote:
Your video is great. It shows the LED to dim when you turn the key; then extinguish, as if some action is expected but not happening.  
Ray



Right, but the CCM communicates with the PATS via the Black Orange wire at pin 3 on PATS  ;)

When I tested my system the Bk/Og at pin 3 was not connected but my LED didn't dim, it simply went out as soon as the correct key was inserted and ignition switched on, as it should.

This is what leads me to believe that PATS looks for an Alarm Triggered signal, but if it doesn't get one on Pin 3 then it functions fine  ;)

When I tried using the wrong key, disconnecting the key reader or disconnecting PATS from the EECV the LED flashed the correct codes, which my scanner confirmed  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 30th, 2011, 11:02am

on 08/30/11 at 10:48:44, Cosray wrote:
Hi Dave, that's an interesting article...

So you used an EEC-IV to control a BOB..?
How did you tell its program to behave well for an engine it could not have known yet when it was born?

Or was it an EEC-IV for a BOA that just happened to behave similarly and well, in spite of those two engines being very different?

I am truly amazed and impressed...

Regards,
Ray


Hi Ray,

Yes EECIV BOA  ;)
EECIV is known to work well on BOB, it is well documented on FORD POWER site  ;)

The only thing it doesn't do is control the VIS, which is why we use an RPM switch wired to the VIS Solenoid.

Fuelling and ignition is spot on and they pull like a train  ;)

Got to go out now, back later  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 30th, 2011, 2:42pm
Hi Dave,

EECIV is known to work well on BOB, it is well documented on FORD POWER site    
The only thing it doesn't do is control the VIS, which is why we use an RPM switch wired to the VIS Solenoid.
Fuelling and ignition is spot on and they pull like a train


... a miracle.  Clever the RPM switch solution.

Now out of interest -- how do you simulate all Autobox signals like EPC/LinePressure, VSS, TSS, temp,  TRS, TFT, TCC and the CCM (EEC-V Comprehensive Componet Monitor!) stop checking all the non-existent solenoids for proper action, lacking the expected autobox behaviour?  

If not present EEC-V will set a LOS condition, not?


The only point I made above was I cannot say it does work for DEFINITE as I cannot try to physically start the engine yet
So how will you ever find out if BOB fires and runs, while it sits on the bench, before transplanting it to the PuMA, if  you can't run it up there?

Curious,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 30th, 2011, 4:54pm

on 08/30/11 at 14:42:03, Cosray wrote:
Hi Dave,

1)   Now out of interest -- how do you simulate all Autobox signals like EPC/LinePressure, VSS, TSS, temp,  TRS, TFT, TCC and the CCM (EEC-V Comprehensive Componet Monitor!) stop checking all the non-existent solenoids for proper action, lacking the expected autobox behaviour?  

2)    If not present EEC-V will set a LOS condition, not?


3)    So how will you ever find out if BOB fires and runs, while it sits on the bench, before transplanting it to the PuMA, if  you can't run it up there?

Curious,
Ray


Hi Ray,

answer to 1):-

Matt has wrote an article on this site in "How To Do Things" Section, and that pretty much covers it, all I'll be doing is incorporating various resistors etc into a plastic box, together with turbine speed sensor and the coil part of the EPC Solenoid, and wiring it to EECV as an add on module so ECU thinks it has an Auto Box fitted  :)
I will emulate a "shifter position 1" with the right value resistor, that way the Auto will never try and shift it will just think it is in 1 all the time...........I have no starter inhibit to worry about.

2:-   EECV only sets a LOS condition if the EPC is faulty no other gearbox codes set a LOS  ;)

3:-   Engine and 4X4 running gear is already installed in the Puma, I will know if it runs or not when I install the wiring loom.
I don't need to test run it "on a bench" because I know the engine is good, it came from my 24V BOB Estate Scorpio, which I owned for quite a few years.

See my PUMA project thread here:-http://www.skyewheelnuts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=896
and here's the last 24V BOB Sierra I wired up a few months back:-http://www.skyewheelnuts.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1271
That is now running well and on the road, been to "Ford Fair" etc  ;)

All in all I've done about 7 or 8 24V BOA and BOB conversions now, 2wd and 4X4, Manual and Auto, and never had one fail to run yet !!

The Puma is my first EECV version though  ;)

Cheers Dave
Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 30th, 2011, 6:17pm
Hi Dave,

I am impressed by your zeal, knowledge, ambition and willpower to achieve all this -

Chapeau

Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 31st, 2011, 8:56am
Cheers Ray,

What's happened to Titus ??

Hows it going buddy ??

Have you got any further ??

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 9:06am
Hi Dave, correct me if I am wrong -  but I get the inpression from the forum as well as Google that sofar no EEC-V equipped BOB has ran outside his donorcar; is that observation correct?

If I am wrong we might all benefit from learning the ropes from that conversion.

Regards,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 31st, 2011, 9:59am
Hi Ray,

I think a couple of guys on Ford Power have had them running, but there was default (LOS) issues due to the lack of Auto Box, and they gave up at that point because they were going Turbo, so used Megasquirt / Emerald etc.

Like I said earlier, the gearbox issues are not a problem any more, Matts manual has covered loads of miles now without LOS  ;)

But you are correct in as much as there isn't many guys who have done it and it is not well documented.

I have an intimate knowledge of the EECV a pretty good knowledge of PATS and very good Scanning equipment, and I really don't see why it cannot be done.

I am very confident, (almost certain) that mine will be fine  ;)

Off out now, back later,

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 31st, 2011, 10:44am
I'm still here, but haven't done anything new yet.

The OBD-2 interface just arrived. I'm going out to play.  

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 11:53am
Hi Dave, Titus - Google tells me there are many conversion aficionados like you out there - my, what business, what efforts...

Most avoided the path you took in mentioning recurring LOS, PATS and missing Autobox problem lacking proper simulation functions.

Here's one in Holland, going the EEC-IV route, transplanting BOB into a SIERRA, explaining why he is avoiding EEC-V and PATS.

http://bit.ly/nvltrT

Regards,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 31st, 2011, 1:29pm
Hi,

I only have 16 pins on the PATS plug. 2 rows, each having 8 pins. The schemes and explanations that I gathered mention pins like 21, 22, 24, 25. How comes that ?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 31st, 2011, 1:37pm
The pinout is shown in the link I posted earlier:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/star.htm

Where are you seeing pins  21, 22, 24, 25 mentioned?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 1:47pm
Tompion,  Titus may be referring to this diagram I sent him:

http://bit.ly/r2d2k5

Does that make sense?
Not sure where I got it from...

The STAR situation you pointed to seems not relevant here as we speak of EEC-V and PATS behaviour and Titus was not referring to its DLC connector, no?

HTH
Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 1:58pm
Hi Titus,

for your OBD2 application do you have a fully functioning DLC Connector?  I seem to remember a picture with loose wires on the DLC.

The STARlink (OBD1) Tompion refers to is not on Scorpio Mk2.
Did you get the right cable + Software?

Curious,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:04pm
My original post said
"Although this is for the EECIV, it does have the pinout for the OBD2 Datalink:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/star.htm

I posted that because he said
"I haven't used any electrical scheme as I'm not very good at reading them." I thought he might find it easier than looking at the PDF's.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:17pm
Hi Ray

I looked at your earlier link re the Sierra but couldn't translate it DOH !!

I agree with you, on earlier cars like Sierra Capri etc I would always go EECIV the 2.9 Sierra's were designed with EECIV so it plugs up to the loom fairly easy, and the EECIV don't mind a few fault codes without going into LOS etc ;)

However, like I said before, when installing BOB in a later Ford, like my 1999 Puma, because the car was already EECV it makes sense to use the BOB's EECV provided the PATS is right, because the car dash and other relays etc are already there and compliant with EECV strategies and wiring.

In fact, the pin outs are so similair on the Puma EECV plug that all I'll be doing is removing the wires to the engine on the Puma Plug, and adding Scorpio's Engine Wires, the lives, earths, cooling fan, temp gauge, rev counter, fuel pump, brake switch, power steering switch etc etc are all on the same pin numbers  ;)

Hence why I want to do my very best to get it to work  ;)

One thought for Titus................

Some of the later Scorpio cars had the dash clock set coded with the ECU, so as he has removed the dash wires that could be bad  ;)

He might be better using an earlier ECU if that is the case ;)

Cheers for now Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:25pm
Hi Dave, I had a peek at your 523 PUMA pics on FordPower... wow... all that's lacking is your voiceover explaining what we see and why!

;-)

Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:25pm

on 08/31/11 at 13:58:36, Cosray wrote:
Hi Titus,

The STARlink (OBD1) Tompion refers to is not on Scorpio Mk2.

That's not correct as far as the pinout is concerned You’ll notice a column headed Alex(24V,16v) that is referring to the pins used by the Alex Pepper obd-2 lead (although the pin configuration on the Alex Pepper lead varies depending on the type of lead you have).

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:28pm
Tompion, although I agree that physically the DLC Connector is teh same for both EEC-IV & -V are their pinouts not different, allowing for greater functionality under OBD2?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:37pm
Hi Dave


on 08/31/11 at 14:17:09, Dave2302 wrote:
Hi Ray

One thought for Titus................

Some of the later Scorpio cars had the dash clock set coded with the ECU, so as he has removed the dash wires that could be bad  ;)


That's news to me! On mine I had that wiring off for a while and business as usual... why would a designer think of the event of anyone stealing a silly analogue clock with hands..?

Curious,
Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 2:40pm

on 08/31/11 at 14:25:42, Tompion wrote:
That's not correct as far as the pinout is concerned You’ll notice a column headed Alex(24V,16v) that is referring to the pins used by the Alex Pepper obd-2 lead (although the pin configuration on the Alex Pepper lead varies depending on the type of lead you have).


Ah yes Tompion, right -  I read that; all very confusing Alex is with his Heinz leads ;-)

Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 31st, 2011, 3:00pm
However I notice that pinout doesn't have the wire colours, This is a screen grab from the PDF:

http://i.imgur.com/ZBTyhpQ.jpg

:)dash clock set = instrument cluster (I assume)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 3:06pm
@ Dave, @ Tompion,

perhaps things got mingled here and are leading a life of their own, causing urban myhts.

The odometer in the instrument cluster is driven by the EEC-V. Exchange of an instrument cluster would keep the same reading on the display... unlike in the old days where you would pourchase a "rejuvenated" odometer before selling the car...

Could that be its origin?

Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 31st, 2011, 5:45pm
As you say Ray, there is far too many "Urban Myths" making this all sound like Black Magic, and it isn't LOL.
Most of them are started in bar rooms and some other forums by folks guessing at answers.
EECV and PATS is not all that hard to understand when you get down to the bones of it, it's actually really rather clever  ;)

There is a post on this site about coded instrument cluster, I'll try and find it.

I know Ford Explorers are the same, the 1997 - 1998 Scorpios may well have coded clock set (yes, Instrument Panel btw)..................

Had a bad ECU in my 2002 Ford Explorer, fitted a s/h one and it wouldn't start until the dash module was re - coded on a mates FDS  >:(

See 2nd to last post by Matt here :-

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1313486139

Apparantly there is a sticker on the cluster saying FDS 2000 Programmed  ???

Also, and not good news for Titus, but most basic OBD readers only read half the codes (emision related), and certainly won't read PATS codes  :(

My Snap On Solus does almost as much as the FDS will  ;)

HTH Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Aug 31st, 2011, 6:22pm
Titus,

Hope you're getting on OK.

I've just trawled through the entire Ford TIS Wiring Diagrams relating to Engine, PATS and Central Control Module, and my own notes, drawings etc.

There is absolutely NO connection between Central Control Module and EECV ECU.

There is only one connection between PATS and Central Control Module which is on pin 3 at PATS module (Black Orange Wire), but my PATS functions perfectly on the bench, showing no codes without this wire connected.
If it were important I think it would show "Theft Detected" Code, mine does flag this code if I switch "Ignition On" with the wrong or no key in it  ;)

The Central Control Module is wired to the Inertia Cut Off Switch, idea being it gets a + signal on impact which unlocks the doors. At the same time the Fuel Pump shuts down.  Nothing to do with running of your EECV though   ;)

I am strongly recommending you look at your instrument cluster to see if it is FDS Programmed, as this could well be your problem  ;)

Also check you have an independant +ve to your injectors with "Ignition On"

HTH Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Aug 31st, 2011, 6:50pm
If he's gone for the Alex Pepper lead, then the good news is it will read PATS codes & CCM - central control(Security & Locking).

I think that applies to the basic lead as well as the Tricom.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Aug 31st, 2011, 6:58pm
Will check that tomorrow Dave, thank you.

I struggled most of the day trying to get the OBD2 interface and laptop to communicate, but didn't succeed (laptop problem) so I scanned it from my brother's Nokia N8.

What I got was : "diagnose is complete. No troubles detected"

A friend's suggestion again was to check the 3 wires from ECU to EDIS. So will do that tomorrow.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Aug 31st, 2011, 9:17pm
Hi Titus,

before this thing is becoming too academic and waylaid by all suggestions and deliberations from types like myself! why not concentrate on the basics where you started off?

Does your starterengine crank?
Do you have sparks?
Do you have INJ drive?
Do you have fuel pressure on the rail?
Are both Crankshaft (for EDIS) and Camshaft Sensors OK?

If not

Does the EEC-V work at all?
Does it draw current (measure thru ground)  or is it locked/frozen/
or inhibited by PATS?

Does OBD2 give any results i.e is the EEC-V accessible for OBD2 analysis? If so it works in testmode.

What results?
Analyse reports
Decide to Go from there.

Decide to restore the wiring where needed most
Inspect and test your basic wiring - if you have sparks but no INJ double check the 3 shielded wires between EDIS and EEC-V for shorts against ground or Plus or interrupts - PIP signal missing
Reinstall CCM and A35 Instrument Interface Module + Instrument Cluster

and repeat the circle

How about that then?
What do you think?
Bedtime here -

HTH
Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 1st, 2011, 2:47am

on 08/31/11 at 18:50:23, Tompion wrote:
If he's gone for the Alex Pepper lead, then the good news is it will read PATS codes & CCM - central control(Security & Locking).

I think that applies to the basic lead as well as the Tricom.


Hi Dave,

Do we know what software he is using, surely it is the software and not the lead that will limit the reading capabilities or not  ;)

If the software is truly accessing all codes and is giving a correct response i.e. "No Codes Present", then it should start and run !!

And if there were a problem with the Screened PIP signal, then a CPS code would be present.............

Me thinks we are getting nowhere fast here.  Titus is going in circles and this is becoming way too complicated when it need not  :(

This is what I would do if I had no equipment to scan it properly, or doubted the results :-

Switch on Ignition and while pump is running, check for a fuel stream at the Schrader Valve test Point on the Fuel Supply Pipe to make sure there is fuel on the rail.

Crank it and check all leads have a spark.

If both the above are okay, connect an LED type test lead to +ve and then stick the -ve lead on pins 3, 4, 12, 30, 36 and 37 at the ECU plug, when cranking the LED should flash indicating that the EECV is firing the Injectors  ;)

Keep it simple, do those 3 tests and report back, then we can advise Titus from there  ;)

Regards Dave


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Sep 1st, 2011, 9:37am
Hi Dave,  

you and I seem to be on the same track here, though I have thoroughly enjoyed our wandering discussion.

How about you Titus, any progress in beautiful Transsylvania?

We cannot wait to know what's cooking -

Ciao
Ray


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 1st, 2011, 10:31am
Hi Ray,

Yes agree with you and apologies to Titus for making his thread long winded, but I think between us we are just trying to impart as much knowledge of the system as we can, and dispel some of the Myths LOL.

Off out again now, "New" Van due it's MOT, but I've been over it with a "fine tooth comb" and done all its jobs, including a Major Service with Timing Belt so I'm fairly confident  ;)

Will also be picking up the Alloy Fuel Tank for the Puma if it's finished, if not will be giving the fabricator a kick up the @rse LOLOLOL

Cheers for now Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 1st, 2011, 3:10pm
Hi,

I know you are all trying to help so don't worry about the size of the topic.
Yesterday, while struggling to get the OBD working I inspected the loose wires on the loom and on one shorting bar (I think this is the term for the plug connecting leads 4 by 4) one wire was going to ECU pin 58 and via a wire junction to other things related to the engine. I have earthed that wire and gave it a try but there was no change.

I also searched for the instrument cluster yesterday but the only 2 labels on it show : "Don't store lens down" and "Checked" or something like that.

Today I did what Dave recommended: checked for fuel pressure - there is some, but the fuel pump only works for 2-3 seconds, no matter if the hose is full or empty.
Then went to checking for spark at all cylinders and on the second bank the engine started on 3cylinders (3 leads were out). I put the others back, but it will only run for 1 second.

I don't know how this happened exactly and if is related to that pin 58 on the PCM, but this is where we are now.

From what I remember, the engine running for only 1-2 seconds is a PATS related problem. Could there be another cause ? As the LED works as it should. I have also rechecked the wires from the PATS green plug, and this is what I ended up with:

It only has 16 pins (is it the same to yours?) of which only 11 are used (the others don't have any wires attached):
1 - GY/OG                          - Key Reader
2- BK/OG with grey drops - LED
3 - BK/BU                          - engine loom ("fuel-cut-off-loom" ?)
4 - BU/RD                          - ECU and Diagnose plug
5 - GY/RD                          - ECU and Diagnose plug
6 - BK/GN                          - Key Reader
7 - GN/YE                          - Key Reader
8 - BU/OG                         - permanent +

9 - WH/GN  - Key Reader
10  - not used
11  - not used
12  - not used
13  - not used
14 - BK/BU with green drops - shorting bar (-) negative
15 - BU/OG                            - positive(+) when key in II position
16 - not used

I had to wait 5 hours to upload the video, but it's finally done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9ucro5d7Y
Cheers

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working? YES! they do now
Post by Cosray on Sep 1st, 2011, 7:38pm
Hi Titus,

just a quicky since we have guests staying -  so there was fire on one bank - GOOD NEWS! You are getting there. Which proves your circuits are half OK.

Limited Running for one second or so is NOT PATS related. PATS only knows two conditions: ON or OFF and is not influenced by performace, only by security issues. So: PATS is GO.

Fuel pressure is a bigger concern. The pump should fill the Fuel Rail, overcoming Fuel Rail Pressure Regulator of 3.0 Bar or so so that it overflows on minimal comsumption i.e. idling into the returnline.

Check for returnfuelvolume it will tell you about pressure and abundance.

Now I notice your tank seems upside down. Not good for fuel supply pumps.

Don't change anything electrically now! Leave conditions as they are!

Your video is anbsolutely great and shows progress - we see propshaft spinning!

Do Concentrate on fuel line...  If the engine does what it does now it will only improve when its envirenoment and components get better!

So far - so long - you're winning!

Ciao
Reinier

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 1st, 2011, 8:01pm
No mate, the engine is firing on all cylinders, but it will only run for a second or so.

A also put a permanent (+) positive on the fuel pump and there was no improvement.

The fuel tank isn't upside down.

I also performed another diagnose and I still get that " no troubles were found" message.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 1st, 2011, 11:14pm
With the software I use I need to go to an enhanced page & select PATS or CCM to read their codes. Some PCM codes only show on the enhanced page.

What lead & software are you using?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Sep 2nd, 2011, 6:57am

on 09/01/11 at 20:01:20, TNT wrote:
No mate, the engine is firing on all cylinders, but it will only run for a second or so.

A also put a permanent (+) positive on the fuel pump and there was no improvement.

The fuel tank isn't upside down.

I also performed another diagnose and I still get that " no troubles were found" message.


Looks like all's in place then however, following a first sequence of firing, the engine dies. This could point to a failing Camshaft Positining Sensor, the one on the side of teh BOB.

The fact alone of turning means the EEC-V drives the Injectors, meaning it is not inhibited by securuty systems.

So thinking logically, a condition sensed after the first round of injections causes the EEC-V to stop driving injectors. Missing kats? Lambda? Any other sensor signal it expects?

Food for thought - gotta run!

More later
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 2nd, 2011, 9:26am
I have just completed a successful diagnose :

P1000 - OBD Systems Readiness Test Not Complete
P1260 - Theft Detected, Vehicle Immobilized

I am using ScanXL Professional software.

Sorry for repeating, but it was on the other page, and it's relevand right now:

It only has 16 pins (is it the same to yours?) of which only 11 are used (the others don't have any wires attached):
1 - GY/OG      - Key Reader
2- BK/OG with grey drops - LED
3 - BK/BU      - engine loom ("fuel-cut-off-loom" ?)
4 - BU/RD      - ECU and Diagnose plug
5 - GY/RD      - ECU and Diagnose plug
6 - BK/GN      - Key Reader
7 - GN/YE      - Key Reader
8 - BU/OG     - permanent +

9 - WH/GN  - Key Reader  
10  - not used
11  - not used
12  - not used
13  - not used
14 - BK/BU with green drops - shorting bar (-) negative
15 - BU/OG        - positive(+) when key in II position
16 - not used

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Sep 2nd, 2011, 12:42pm
Hi Titus, good news again: visible errors!

Now would it not be wise to print/save these errors, clear DTC memory and rerun the engine to see whether these errors appear again?
 
It strikes me as odd that an immobilesed EEC-V would fire at start even for short run at all since a Theft Detected Condition orders EEC-V all INJ to be permanently inhibited.

These DTC's might be leftovers from earlier trials.

If they persist we must deduce further - but we're close.

Later,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 2nd, 2011, 6:33pm
Titus, Ray,

Unfortunately that is exactly what PATS does, when it immobilizes, the engine will fire and run for a few seconds, then if EECV doesn't see the "Key OK" Signal within a few seconds, it shuts down.

Read the PATS codes to find out why it is flagging "Theft Detected".

Don't worry about the other code, that is because the power has been off the ECU, that code will dissapear after 15 - 20 miles of driving.

I'm away for a few days, so internet will be sketchy, but I'll check in from time to time.

The only leads you need connected to the PATS is in the diagram that Ray linked for you, and in one of my earlier posts.  The bit that says "Engine Control Relay ??" is wrong and should read "Central Control Module", but mine is working fine without that connected, and does not put up a "Theft Detected" Code  ;)

You need to find out why it is immobilizing, then report back.  If your software won't scan it, then the LED should be flashing a code at you.  There is info on this site about the flash codes and what they mean  ;)

Good Luck,

Keep us posted,

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 2nd, 2011, 6:53pm
Could you post a link with those PATS codes please?
The LED does exactly what it should: flashes 1:3 when ignition is OFF, when I switch the key to II position it stays RED for 3 seconds then goes off.

I read those schemes and printed them, but I can't follow them as they mention pins like 25,26 and I only have 16 pins (and they are numbered from 1 to 16). Could anyone help with that ?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 2nd, 2011, 9:28pm
Titus,

Someone will put you up a link I'm sure, I'm a bit busy right now and can't remember exactly where to find it ;)

It strikes me that you may have a different PATS Module, being as your donor is a left hand drive European Model, all the separate PATS Modules I have seen have a lot more than 16 pins, and that is what the diagram we have given you refers to.

This could be a problem for you as I haven't a clue what to suggest with a 16 pin PATS set up, it is obviously different to our UK models  :(

Anyone else care to chip in ??

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 2nd, 2011, 9:32pm
If you click on the picture of a Scorpio at the top of the page it takes you to the main site where entering PATS into the search box would lead you to http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm

1:3 means Key code not received.

However mine (2.3) doesn’t flash anything with ignition off even if I’ve wrapped the key in foil to produce 1:3 with ignition on.

Can't comment with regard the Pats plug.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 2nd, 2011, 9:40pm
Dave (Tompion), has just hit the nail on the head me thinks.........................

Thanks for putting up the linky Dave  ;)

I've just read it, and Code 1:3 means not receiving the Key Code, so either your Key is dud, or somehow it has lost its programming, perhaps a spike when wiring up ??

Like Daves, mine doesn't flash anything, but will flash 1:3 if I stick an un chipped key in and turn it on............

Maybe you have an earth or a + missing as your 16 pin PATS is different...............

Do you have a spare key you can try ??

Regards Dave............

(now getting nagged at by Mel to pack bags for trip south) LOLOLOL

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 2nd, 2011, 10:16pm
I read about those codes flashed by the LED before, I thought there were other codes like the DTC ones.

You got it wrong guys, it's not flashing 1:3 all the time, but just until I switch the key to II position. Then it stays on for ~3 sec. then it goes out.
You can see how it works in this video (from min. 1:05 on):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Eg_ujkPx7c

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 3rd, 2011, 12:19am
I wouldn't say I've got it wrong as I said "However mine (2.3) doesn’t flash anything with ignition off"

Perhaps it's different on non UK cars, in which case you’ll probably need to wait for Ray to return.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 3rd, 2011, 2:17am
Codes stored in the PATS module would appear to begin with a B. I get “B1600 Pats ignition key transponder signal is not received” when I wrap the key with aluminium foil.

Do you know your software can connect to the PATS module? The P1260 code you obtained is stored in the EEC-V PCM.

There are some PATS codes here, but you need to be careful with any sites that don’t specifically mention the Scorpio as it may be wrong or not relevant & may just confuse matters:
http://v8sho.com/SHO/Passive%20Anti%20Theft%20Diag%20TSB%2099-26-6.htm

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Sep 3rd, 2011, 8:38am
Hi guys,  just my two cents' here.

The 25-pinout diagram is Dave's original, which he drew up and let me kindly have last year.

Apart from pinout for a 16-pin or 25-pin connector, looking closely you will notice Titus' description of functional leads AND colours do match Dave's, but for the pin-numbering.

Apparently there's two connectorsizes out there, fully or less populated by the pinout. Again the physical numbering may be different (confusing) but with respect to functionality AND in colourcoding they are identical.

In my LHD 24v the PATS module is hard to get at, located somewhere behind the Instrument Cluster. No way I can go have a quick look.

See here: http://bit.ly/o4t0ss

However, Logical reasoning tells me that an active = triggered PATS

  • show the usual/expected failure codes on its LED - check table

  • will active the start inhibitor relay (easily bridged thru pins 87 x 30)

  • inhibit INJectors thru EEC-V thru wires 16 & 15 / GY/RD & BU/RD. Now there's 4 combinations of voltages possible for those two wires to inhibit the EEC-V, that can be easily measured in each state (and abusively influenced!) on the DLC connector; see previous page here


Since your engine cranks AND fires, albeit not long, it follows PATS is not activated. There is no way an engine can repeatedly be started and running, even shortly, without INJectors working = driven by the EEC-V.

So it follows a secundary cause , introduced 1-2 secs after initial firing, is stopping it, for example -

Ign Key contact failing/loose after let go of key to pos II?
Too thin or loose ground wires for various modules causing stray currents once coilpack starts drawing heavily spiked ignition currents, upsetting EEC-V and other elex (remedy: lay fat ground cable for ground distribution)
PATS realises CCM is NOT present (is it present now?
Engine running relay is not responding (since generator is out? Is it ON AND charging?) present/functional (giving impression to electronics as if engine is not running)
Rattling component/connector/wire in "fuel cut-off loom" over cylinders and injectors
Coilpack common ground loose/not well connected to battery NEG?
EEC-V Ground wire missing/wrongly grounded?
Clogged fuelline?
Defect Fuel Pressure Regulator Valve?
Reversed/cut/loose Camshaft Sensor wiring causing Misfire after initial turns?
Battery voltage going below 11 Volts AND not being charged? The coilpack alone draws min. 1 Amp per coil.(Cutting out Fuelrelay, engine running relay, EEC-V stopping; TEST this by measuring battery voltage continuously)
Alarm falsely triggered by loose wires/sensors/doorswitches?
Autobox generating near-immediately grave faultcodes stopping engine i.e EPC Line Pressure signal high/missing/faulty? TSS zero?

Etc. etc. more will come to mind later

Titus, have you been able to clear your DTC's, restarted and read-out again to see if they reappear?

Also, can you confirm whether on NEG pole of battery you find a fat ground cable + two thinner black wires (essential for some of the electronics) ?

Do use/install fat grounddistribution cable

Later today,
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 3rd, 2011, 8:39am

on 09/03/11 at 00:19:39, Tompion wrote:
I wouldn't say I've got it wrong as I said "However mine (2.3) doesn’t flash anything with ignition off"


Same here, mine flashes bog all with the ignition off, and when you introduce SOME codes, it will flash them up with Ignition On.

I say "some codes" meaning those in the list, because there are others that you can only access with a scan of the PATS Module  ;)

The European PATS must be different to UK, because Titus only has a 16 pin module, All the UK ones I've seen have 26 pins, (2 rows of 13).

That is why I can't really advise much more because I haven't looked at / messed with a 16 pin PATS system.

However, my findings with the UK set up are backed up by the PATS article Dave linked us above, which clearly states that the PATS is totally separate to the Alarm System.  
I just hope that also applies to the European ones, otherwise you may be better getting a 26 pin set up with Key and ECU from a UK Car, because I know how to make them work LOL !!

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 3rd, 2011, 10:01am

on 09/03/11 at 08:38:10, Cosray wrote:
Now there's 4 combinations of voltages possible for those two wires to inhibit the EEC-V, that can be easily measured in each state (and abusively influenced!) on the DLC connector; see previous page here

Since your engine cranks AND fires, albeit not long, it follows PATS is not activated. Ray


I'm afraid that is totally wrong.

PATS does not send + or - signal to EECV, it is a digital code, which is very hard to replicate as they all differ, car to car.

The Engine WILL start and run for a few seconds with a PATS problem, because the EECV looks for the "KEY OK" signal from PATS during the first few seconds, and if it doesn't receive it then it shuts down the Injectors.

Your theft detected code is telling you it is a PATS Problem.

The alarm has NO influence over this AT ALL.................

PATS is a totally stand alone system !!

Myself and Matt and Neil have PROVED all this on working cars as well as my "Bench" set up................

IT IS NOT THEORY / GUESSWORK  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Sep 3rd, 2011, 10:42am
@ Hi Dave I stand corrected...
... though not totally wrong for my just two cents', perhaps just one cent OK?  ;-)

Mixing up systems I confused the nature of the inhibitor signals. They are in fact a continiuous code sort of ACK/NACK as in telecomms, intended as an interrogation as well as integrity check. They also contain the PATS ID and Errorcodes exchnaging them thru a protocol called Standard Company Protocol (SCP) or IS0 9141. Now that's of great use.of course.

And yes you are right - it IS all guesswork and theory, since we are scattered over Europe and not at your bench or Titus' garage with no working engines and we cannot apply all our valued knowledge hands-on, can we now? A round table would certainly be more efficient than messaging but there you are, all trying hard and ruining keyboards.

Fact of the matter is neither of your engines run and the cause is unknown.

Now it is my strong conviction that the EEC-V does all the checking alarming etc. immediately at KEY ON and sets the condition GO-NOGO. It does in my 24v - YMMV! You can even fool it by turning further and starting too quickly.

So much for apologies in my ambition trying to help out.
Now - who puts his finger on what's wrong?

One could easily test my suggestions and prove me wrong, thereby eliminating causes and homing in on the culprit.

@ Titus, are you there?
Is/are the DTC reproduceable?

Ciao for now - off to the beach building sandcastles with the grandchildren!
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 3rd, 2011, 10:51am
Tompion, could you please suggest some software that can connect to PATS module ?
I also tried clearing P1260 DTC, but it comes back after several attempts to start the engine.

I also checked my LHD PATS diagram with the ones you sent me, and judging by colors they are all the same, apart from

pin 12 VT/BU permanent (+)

on your diagram for which I can't find a match as I only have 11 wires in total and on the UK diagram there are 12 wires (considering pin 4 , which I also have as pin 3).

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 3rd, 2011, 12:36pm
[quote author=Cosray link=board=Problems;num=1314310164;start=80#96 date=09/03/11 at 10:42:56Fact of the matter is neither of your engines run and the cause is unknown.
[/quote]

Oh dear  :(

That is NOT a fact concerning any of the Engines I have used or am currently using  :P

I think I'm gonna be outta here in a minute or 2  :(

I don't type guesswork, only what I know to be true.
I have always said "I stand corrected" on the basis that your European System may be different to the UK, but I doubt it will be as significantly different as some of your posts suggest ;)

The Scorpio ECU's were all mapped and developed by the same company, one of their Directors is a good mate of mine, and he develops for major manufacturers all over the world.

But my engine will run LOL, it drove its injector circuit when presented with a PIP signal for at least an hour when soak testing on the bench.

I just can't try the engine yet because the car isn't wired up yet, as I have said before !!

I'd probably get more time to wire it up if I spent less time arguing on here LOLOLOL.

My system does not produce a theft detected code therefore I am not guessing  ;)

We PROVED that the engines will run a few seconds by unplugging the PATS Comms pins 15 and 16 at the ECU on 2 good running Scorpios (Matts and Neils), and they both still started every time but died a few seconds later.  
In fact, it was only one of the 2 pins which caused this, but I can't remember which now, I have it filed away somewhere but I'm off down South in an hour or so  ;)
I think from memory it was 16 but could be the other way round.............so in essence PATS only sends its signal down one of the two !!

Again, not guesswork, proven on running engines.

And going back a few pages now, I forgot there is another 24V running on EECV in a Transit Van, which belongs to a friend on here, one of our Moderators.

So the advice I am giving IS NOT GUESSWORK, it is based on fact  :P

Anyhow, I'll take a back seat now as I'm going away, I can only lead the Horse to Water, I Cannot Make It Drink !!

Have a nice day,

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 3rd, 2011, 1:32pm
Please don't start arguing, as no one would benefit from this (especially me  ;D). I am trying to follow advice from each of you (although I am more convinced of verified facts , may I say), and I am convinced you all just want to help.

As for the present situation I am convinced it's PATS-related as I tried to wire one lead differently and the LED went flashing rapidly and the engine behaved just the same. Will try and redo the connections between PATS and ECU and report back, as it may be the PATS works well (if we were to believe what the LED does) but the ECU doesn't get the signal.


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 3rd, 2011, 6:02pm
I’m afraid I can’t recommend any software as the only experience I have is with the Alex Pepper lead which will only work with his software & his software only works with his lead.
You could try contacting your supplier & see if the PATS reader is hidden away somewhere or they have additional software for it.

I was waiting to see if Ray confirmed or not if his car flashed the light with the ignition off,  since any comment I make would be guesswork based on what I’ve read on the net & the fact that mine doesn’t flash with the ignition off (also something I’d read about code u1262 someone else was asking about).

I suppose it may be of use to know the part no’s of your ECU & your PATS modules.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 3rd, 2011, 6:19pm
on PATS module it writes:
98BP-19A366-AB
PATS SCP CONTROL MODULE
SAC00011183

on ECU it writes:
TACK    EEC-V
98GB-12A650-EA

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 3rd, 2011, 11:18pm
A search for those part no’s showed a couple of each for sale in the UK. One PATS said for a 2.3 the other didn’t mention the engine size. Presumably the 98 prefix means they’re late versions – possibly later versions have a different pin layout?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 4th, 2011, 9:04am
And the donor car's VIN: WFOFXXGAGFWT57663

I'm away for the moment, so I haven't tried anything new (nor have any new ideas).

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 1:52pm
Titus,

Apologies if I seem argumentative, and I'm certain Ray is only trying to help you  ;)

I just think that where you are at now, to much info is just clouding the issue  ;)

For example, a "Shopping List" of possible faults, IMHO will just send you off in all directions..............

For example CATS, Cam Pos Sensor, Lambdas etc will all put up fault codes, but they will not stop the engine from firing and running continuously  ;)

This is your goal at the moment, and the only significant code you have is "Theft Detected", which is the EECV ECU telling you that it is not getting a "KEY OK" Signal from PATS.

This code will DEFINITELY give you all the symptoms you currently have, that is Start and Run for a few seconds, then die.  As I have said 2 others as well as myself got this exact situation when disconnecting the PATS on a good running car.

I am away with relatives who don't have internet at the moment, so I'm on a very sketchy, hit or miss connection  :(

Whilst I have had spare time I've double checked all my wiring diagrams and saved files on my Laptop to double check that the information I am giving you is correct  ;)

In particular...............There is no connection between CCM Alarm and PATS, both are stand alone systems, and the CCM / Alarm definitely will not put a "Theft Detected" code in the ECU on the UK EECV systems that I have worked with  ;)

To summarise then, I am certain that your problem is that the ECU is not getting"Key OK" signal from PATS, and that is probably a bad wire connection, or the PATS has lost the Key Chip Code for some reason.
If it has lost the Key Code it will need resetting with FDS, Snap On Solus or simlair.

I just wish you were nearer, as I feel sure I could sort this for you in an hour or so  ;)

Regards Dave


Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 6th, 2011, 6:57pm
Anything else I could check myself before looking for someone with FDS ? Are the grey/red and blue/red wires the only ones between PATS and ECU ?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 7:13pm
Yes they are the 2 wires, also go to the DLC, connected on pins 15 and 16 at ECU  ;)

Have you a spare key you can try ?

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 6th, 2011, 7:31pm
No, I only have one key. I also fitted the key reader back to the steering column to prevent it from moving around and there's no improvement.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 7:46pm
darn it !!

I take it you are still getting the "theft detected" code ?

The key reader and key isn't near any source of electrical interference whilst you are testing is it ?

Such as too near other keys, a battery charger, ignition system or ECU ??

Also the PATS module is in a metal cage in the car, I wonder if this is perhaps for some form of screening ??  It hasn't made any difference to mine when bench testing, but my bench is metal and earthed, might be worth a try ?

Just a few thoughts............

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 7:48pm
oh, btw, what is the LED doing now, and forgetting pin numbers for now, are your colours all connected as per my diagram ??

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 6th, 2011, 8:00pm
Did you see the donor car running? Did you see the light flashing on that with the ignition off as it does now?

I’m just wondering as it appears to be a late car & apparently has a different PATS plug maybe it is one with the different type of instrument cluster & that’s why it flashes a code with ignition off.

Have you tried screening the key to see if it behaves differently?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 8:06pm
Hi Dave,

I'm wondering if that Dash Cluster should be connected, being as it's a late car, mine is 1996 bitz, and deffo doesn't need it connected  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 6th, 2011, 8:14pm
Yes, I still get the P1260 code. I delete it and after a few attempts it comes back.
The key and key reader are on the concrete in the garage, but there isn't anything with current running through in the nearby. I also have a battery charger but it's 3 meters away and unplugged.

In the current setup the PATS module sits on top of the ECU.

The LED works fine. I tried wiring the ignition (+) wire to permanent (+) and the LED went crazy. It was flashing all the time, then it flashed codes I guess, so I wired it as initially.

The differences between your diagram (by colours) are:
- I don't have a BU/RD wire (that should be ignition (+) )
- my VT/BU wire is wired to ignition (+) instead of permanent (+) as in the diagram

L.E.:
Yes, I have seen the donor running and drove it. The LED flashed as it does now.
I will try to screen the key and also fit the instrument cluster.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Tompion on Sep 6th, 2011, 8:21pm

on 09/06/11 at 20:14:13, TNT wrote:
The LED works fine. I tried wiring the ignition (+) wire to permanent (+) and the LED went crazy. It was flashing all the time, then it flashed codes I guess, so I wired it as initially.

When did that happen, ignition off or on?
That's normal behaviour (ignition on) when the key isn’t recognised it flashes rapidly for 30 seconds followed by a code.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 8:32pm
Yes, I think we are getting somewhere now, get it wired so it does the rapid flashing upon switching on ignition, this means it is working, but is immobilized, at the end of the rapid flashing it will then flash you a code, tell us what the code is................

Also I've just been studying your video with fine toothed comb................

at the beginning I see your key passed through the key reader ring and turning the electrical bit of the ignition lock....................

That didn't work for me on the bench, I kept getting incorrect key errors, it seemed very sensitive to the orientation of the key reader etc.....................

To make it reliable I had to have the key in the steering lock, with the ignition switch fitted, and with the key reader ring fitted correctly for it all to work faultlessly.................

Exactly as it came out of the car  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 8:45pm
I've just had some good news,

The "one off" Alloy fuel tank is now finished for the Puma so when I get home I can get my fuel system installed in the Puma, then fit the wiring loom and get the car started up  :)

It will be good to hear it bark into life after all this time  ;D

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 6th, 2011, 9:09pm
The problem is that when I wired the ignition (+) to permanent (+) the LED flashed rapidly and then codes all the time, no matter where the Key was (0 I II or III).

I already bolted the key reader to steering column as original a few days ago and there was no improvement.
I also redid the screening and insulation on the 3 wires from EDIS to ECU and wired the 2 wires from ECU to PATS directly without going to DLC and nothing changed.
And here is my question: are those grey/red and blue/red leads wired like this in your cars/setup ?
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7980/wires.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/wires.png/)

Dave, you should post a link after yours is running, so I can see the fun I miss  :D

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 10:03pm
Hi Titus,

Mine is connected exactly as per your diagram, except there is no CCM in the circuit, and I have done away with the connector plugs  ;)

There will be videos of the Puma Engine running with links posted LOL  ;D

So when your LED is flashing a code, what is the code ?
And when the Engine cuts out is it definitely due to no fuel being injected (test lamp LED on injectors stops working) ?

This info will help point us in the right direction  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 6th, 2011, 10:18pm
I'll do those tests and report back tomorrow.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 7th, 2011, 6:04pm

on 09/03/11 at 18:19:25, TNT wrote:
on PATS module it writes:
98BP-19A366-AB
PATS SCP CONTROL MODULE


That PATS Module part number is the same as a Mondeo one too  ;)

Hmmmmm I wonder if we can get Tweecer or SCT etc that will re flash a Manual Transmissioned V6 Mondeo ECU in this country.................
Might be easier as none of them will re flash Cossie BOB ECU ' s  ;)

Food for thought  ;D

Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 7th, 2011, 7:58pm
I didn't get the time to try anything with the engine today, sorry but I've been really busy.
Off-topic: this was today's fun  ;D
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/3559/imag0177c.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/198/imag0177c.jpg/)
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/9027/imag0174m.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/imag0174m.jpg/)

I will deal with BOB tomorrow.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 7th, 2011, 8:26pm
Hmmmmmm, haven't seen a MkII back end in a long long while........................

Do you think that will live long with the torque from the 24V  ;D

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 7th, 2011, 8:30pm
I think it will last longer than the T9  :D.   I'll also swap the diff for a 2.5 diesel one for better ratio.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 7th, 2011, 9:37pm
LOL thats true, the BOB Sierra I did recently trashed a T9 in under 3000 miles, it's now running a modded MT75  ;)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 8th, 2011, 12:05pm
I put the instrument cluster back - no difference.
I screened the key and the LED flashed rapidly, then code 1:3.
Checked all ECU grounds and they are all there.

Then went to checking the injectors with the "LED" (I used a small instrument cluster bulb):
- with the ignition OFF (key in 0 position) and LED connected at battery (+) at one end, and the other at injector plug - on one wire the LED lights poorly on the other it's brighter.

Is it normal to get (-) on both injector wires ?

- with ignition ON (key in II poistion) the LED goes OFF,
- with the engine cranking and running the LED starts blinking as shown in the video.

The video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2OIDmQRaHg

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 9th, 2011, 8:44am
Well it sounds like your PATS module is wired okay.

You will get the feedback thru ECU with no ignition on and test lamp wired direct to battery  ;)

You should really connect the led across ignition live and injector -ve

Yeah, the injector LED flashing proves the injectors are firing, on cranking, but we sort of knew that as it starts  ;)

What you need do do now is run it at a few revs, say 2500 ish and after a few seconds, as it cuts out, see if the LED stops flashing, (before engine has stopped turning), indicating that the reason for the cutting out is because the injectors have shut down.....................

Are you with me on that ?

Let me know what happens. Drove back overight, I'm back home in Scotland now so have my proper internet LOL.

Regards Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by lleewar on Sep 10th, 2011, 12:39am
Dave, Have you forgotten something? I have some parts for you and Peter. What happened?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by gozz on Sep 10th, 2011, 8:27am
He has a severe case of Pumaitis,it causes memory loss  ;D

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 10th, 2011, 9:55am
Hi Lee,

No I haven't forgot lol, we only had 4 days when we came down, and I couldn't cram everything in, also I knew you were having grief with your car too................

We are bringing the "outlaws" back down in a couple of weeks, will have more time then, so I'll catch you then if that's ok................

Hope I haven't inconvenienced you too much, sorry, should have rung you, my bad  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by lleewar on Sep 12th, 2011, 12:17am
Dave, PM sent

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 12th, 2011, 11:44am
Thanks Lee,

Return PM sent  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 16th, 2011, 10:37am
Went in the garage today to perform the test with the throttle ~half open and ... the engine started, responded to throttle moves ... and only cut off when my brother switched the key back to I position. And it did this on only 5 injectors as one plug was connected to test LED. So I connected back the plug to the 6th injector and gave it another try: again it ran, accelerated, etc. but it won't idle.

Yes, I am happy, but what happened ? I did nothing else but opened the throttle more. Does it make any sense to you?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 16th, 2011, 12:46pm
Hi Titus,

Yes now that makes far more sense to me..................

You have now proved your PATS is fine, and you obviously do not need the CCM, Orange Module, Cruise Control or all that other sh!t connected  ;D

This is good news, and exactly as all my bench testing proved to me....................

My fuel tank is now fitted to the Puma, I'm installing the feed and return pipes this weekend and then wiring it all up in the car, so I'm now 100% positive mine will start and run okay.

Your idle problem is probably a sticky Idle Air Conrol Valve, (notorious for that), and also you'll find that if the battery has been off the ECU (when you stripped it all out of the Scorpio), they then take a while to re- learn the idle speed setting..................

When my Scorpio stood around before I stripped it the battery used to go flat every 6 weeks or so, and I found that after that it wouldn't idle right...................

I used to hold it at 2000 rpm until it was warm and very slowly release the throttle as near back to idle as I could, then as it starts to falter, take it back to 2000 again etc etc etc, eventually it will let you drop the throttle all the way back and will idle a bit erratically, and gradually this improves, as the "Adaptive Learn" strategy in the EECV re learns its values.

There is a proper procedure for doing this on here somewhere  ;)

As you now know that your PATS and wiring is okay, my advice is get it all installed in your car, get the cooling system and exhaust sorted, then you can "teach it" it's idle setting.................

No point doing it now as it will need doing again when you've installed it  ;)

Good work Titus, and I'm glad you've proven my PATS wiring on a running set up, as that was the final test mate.

Thanks for reporting back here, and keep us posted on your car build, piccys etc.

Regards Dave    

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Sep 16th, 2011, 12:57pm
Many thanks to you all and especially Dave for your help and patience!
I hope this is where the mysterious problem ends  ;D although we didn't conclude what the problem really was.

The CCM is not connected at all, but the instrument cluster is (I will try to start the engine without it next time).
So as to leave some sort of knowledge on this forum that proved very helpful for me, the problem could have been:
- the key reader ring not bolted firmly in place.
- me being stupid and wiring permanent (-) to pin 58 of EECV
- me being stupid again and trying to start it without opening the throttle wider.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Sep 16th, 2011, 1:03pm
Aha, so it may be as your set up was from a 1998, the dash cluster is indeed "FDS Programmed", and that was giving you the "Theft Detected" Code  ;)

If that proves to be the case just use an earlier ECU, mine is 1996 year and doesn't need the Cluster  ;)

I'm sure Highlander will have an "EXIT" ECU he can sell you if you need one ;) ;)

Pin 58 is the VSS Signal, and they are noted for stalling when pulling up if this isn't connected right  ;)

Cheers Titus,

Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Oct 1st, 2011, 8:09pm
I owed you this last test result : I started the engine one more time before preserving it for winter and it ran fine without the instrument cluster.

So considering it's a late 1998 car and it still has separate PATS and non-WDS-coded instrument cluster, they might just all be like this ?

And one more question : where's Ray ?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 3rd, 2011, 7:02pm
Hi Titus,

Excellent news,

So now you know exactly how to wire it when you fit it, well done  ;)

Matt and I are currently experimenting with getting BOBs to run on a Manual V6 Mondeo ECU, as it will not require all the "auto gearbox fooling"  circuitry, should have a more suitable Ignition Map for manual transmissions, and there is a lot more support out there for re - mapping them, as there was a lot lot more Duratec V6's built than BOB's  :)

Keep an eye on the thread on FordPower if you're interested  :)

Cheers

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by TNT on Oct 4th, 2011, 8:44am
I was already watching the thread on the other forum  ;D

Cheers

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Cosray on Oct 5th, 2011, 2:52pm

on 10/01/11 at 20:09:57, TNT wrote:
And one more question : where's Ray ?


Thanks for inquiring: here he is - back from hospital for new CV joints & ball bearings  ;D

Good you got yourself sorted out then - interesting to see how we can fool the ECU -

Ciao
Ray

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 9th, 2012, 7:10pm
Hey guys!

Just wanted to say thank you, as this thread helped me to wire up my car (Sierra estate with 2.9 BOB + eecv), so big thanks to everyone!

Running with the "spagetti" still not sorted out 100%:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj7BqDvHr2U

And in use:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSjZdxKSKfc

VIS isnt working somehow, but I will make an RPM window switch for it, so thats still to come.

Thanks!

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 13th, 2012, 12:15pm
Yeah, good to see this old thread again.

Mine is running fine on EECV.   PATS all working correctly and no CCM or alarm tomfoolery in sight.

I have also got it running fine on a EECV Manual V6 Mondeo ECU, which seems to be the way to go with manual cars as they only use 2 Lambdas, dont need a EDIS6 module and don't require all the Auto Box tomfoolery.

Picked up 2nd place out of 20 or so cars on its last outing  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by leewar on Nov 13th, 2012, 1:38pm
Coming first will come soon Dave ;)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 13th, 2012, 6:30pm
The thing is, that I'm only using 2 lambdas at the moment, the first 2 ones, still operating quite well. I tryed a BOB with BOA loom, I find it just a bit more powerful, but that can be anything I guess. So its strange it doesnt cry for the other to lambdas?

Dave, I read the thread about the V6 mondeo ecu, but still couldnt figure out witch of the ecu-s is truly plug & play? So where you dont have to fiddle with anything, can you help me out here? As it would be great to get rid of all the crap thats in my engine bay (auto box selector etc etc). Not that I know where to get my hands on one here (Hungary)... :( But I might have luck on ebay.

BTW I use the car in "1" gear (on the selector). Didnt try anything else tho.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 14th, 2012, 9:50am
None of them are truly plug and play, but the 1997 "RUTH" ECU is almost.

It just requires a few wires changing round in the EECV Plug, mainly Ignition wiring because the Mondy V6 ECU has coil drivers built in so it doesn't need a EDIS6 Module.  Sensors and injectors, lives and earths are all the same, the pin outs, and the ones to change are all clearly set out in my thread on Ford Power.

It will idle slightly faster on cold start, and mine idles around 950 rpm hot, but that's fine on a manual car.

The Ignition and fuel maps are so close that they drive perfectly................
On a stock BOB they run very slightly rich but with a decent intake and exhaust they are fine.

The stock BOB ECU is lean from the factory, thats why they always pull better when cold and running open loop  ;)

TBH it all depends what car you are installing the engine in, mine went in a 1999 Puma, which was originally an EECV car, so EECV was the way to go as all the relays and dash functions etc are already in the car wiring.

Older cars, like for example Sierra is easier to use a BOA ECU they don't have a default (LOS) Strategy so can handle a few fault codes, that is to say they run OK without EGR Auto Box Can Purge etc etc.  

HTH

Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 14th, 2012, 11:08am
Thats the strange thing, that I got the engine for my sierra, and with eecv, and it seems to run fine, and on full power (exept for the vis). I tried my friends sierra (bob engine, boa wiring), and it was just a tad bit powerfull, so nothing major. Its strange...

Thanks for clearing up the mondy ecu, I read the thread again, and its clear now what to do. I might give it a shot, to clear up things in the engine bay, and runing a bit rich is always better :)

I'l be using the cosworth dash as well, I found out the wiring for it, so everything is working. Its going to be exiting.. :)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 14th, 2012, 12:57pm
That's strange, the VIS should work with the EECV BOB ECU, it's the EECIV that you need a RPM Window switch, but we've also found it must have the little vacuum tank as well as it doesn't work right on full throttle without it  ;)

See my posts about VIS on Ford Power.

I'm using a MSD RPM Window switch to control mine but it can be done with the Mondy ECU if you have the circuit board from the Mondy IMRC and a micro switch on the VIS valve to tell the ECU when it's open / closed.

They do seem to run a little better on the BOA ECU, rather than the BOB.
I think that BOA is mapped a little richer as Emission Legislation wasn't as tight in the early nineties as it was in the mid nineties when the BOB was mapped  ;)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 14th, 2012, 2:05pm
Well if I'm right, and the VIS wire is on pin 44 (white wire), we measured it, and nothing ever comes out of it, no volts or such. Are we missing something?

I read the thread on fordpower if this is the one:

http://www.fordpower.org.uk/forum2/index.php/topic,9586.0.html

But because I got the parts for the engine only, I dont know if we missed something, ans something is missing for the vis to operate?

Can it be, that my gear selector is in 1st gear? Should the car be moving (on load), or should it work either way?

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Matt on Nov 14th, 2012, 5:58pm
if your using the bob ecu then you will need to make the car think its in neutral as it will be looking for the turbine sensor (when running a manual box) and put the ecu into los mode

also vis will work so long as engine is running, sounds like you have a missingwire

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 15th, 2012, 12:53pm
What should be the simptoms of running los mode? As I got full power, and no problems at all? I might try running in "neutral", just to check out if anything happens.

On another note, I found out that the 44 pin is only giving ground, so that might be the problem why the vis didnt want to run, so I will check that as well next time I'l be around the car.

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Matt on Nov 15th, 2012, 5:12pm
In loss normally engine will feel very flat and not want to rev. if you have not driven the car yet then maybe its ok but normally when the turbine sensor isnt picking up when the car is moving it goes into loss to protect the gear box from further damage

ive had my cossie running a manual box for 2 years and about 12000 miles nowand its not missed a beat

have you seen the how do guide i wrote? it can be found in the how to.do things section  :)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 15th, 2012, 5:46pm
I'v been threw a drift day with the car, and it seems fine to me, powerfull, reving up nicely, hitting the limiter in secod gear easily, and shifting up to third gear on 205 wide tires, so I dont think its in los mode.

Yes of course I'v seen your guide, its printed out if anything starts to go wrong, or if I loose the gear selector, etc I will know what to do! :)

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by Dave2302 on Nov 15th, 2012, 6:20pm
Pin 44 will send a ground signal as and when the ECU wants to switch the VIS Valve Solenoid.
The other side of the solenoid should have a ignition live to it fed fromthe injector + 's.

HTH Dave

Title: Re: 24v injectors not working?
Post by mancs on Nov 15th, 2012, 6:53pm
And should the vis work in neutral position, or only in first? Does the car need to be under load (I read that somewere)?



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