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        General >> Give/Need advice to/from others >> auto gearbox oil
        
(Message started by: podge on Aug 23^rd, 2016, 8:21pm)

Title: auto gearbox oil
Post by podge on Aug 23^rd, 2016, 8:21pm

Hi,
When do you know when the Automatic grearbox oil is past it's best - the car has just done over 90,000 miles I do tow a caravan. thanks,
Podge.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Simmo on Aug 24^th, 2016, 7:55am

I can only refer you to This article (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/aboxfilters.htm) which should provide all the information you need. ;)

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by PJDavis on Aug 24^th, 2016, 11:21pm

It's an easy enough job, but very messy. Change the oil, it'll be best for the gearbox.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by podge on Aug 25^th, 2016, 6:10pm

My thanks to Simmo and PJDavis for their suggestions, unfortunatly I will have to get a garage to give me a quote as I have limited ativity.
Regards,
Podge.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Andycan on Aug 27^th, 2016, 12:36am

The colour, consistancy and smell of the oil are all good indicators of when it is past it's best.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Andycan on Aug 27^th, 2016, 12:38am

New it is bright red and fluid but as it gets older it gets thicker and changes colour to brown and even black.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by amigafan2003 on Aug 29^th, 2016, 4:46pm

on 08/25/16 at 18:10:36, podge wrote:

My thanks to Simmo and PJDavis for their suggestions, unfortunatly I will have to get a garage to give me a quote as I have limited ativity.
Regards,
Podge.

I've just had mine done by a garage I trust - I supplied the filter + fluid and they only charged me an hour labour.

My fluid had started to change from bright red to red/brown and the box was whining a little so thought it best to change the filter and fluid. It's now a bit quieter and I think the gear changes are a touch smoother - although that might be a placebo. Car has done 109k miles.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Sep 6^th, 2016, 5:05pm

If you are easily bored look away now. I haven't been a member long but being, virtually housebound I spend a lot of time reading post after post on this site. I have read many useful articles but when I read this post I checked my oil, a good thing too. Despite driving almost every variant of Granada through the eighties and nineties (manual and auto) I never ever checked gearbox oil as they were all company cars. I bought my first Scorpio (auto) around 2008 and never checked the oil. My latest Scorpio is on 127000 miles and it never occurred to me to check the oil. Good thing I did, the oil is a sort of orangey/brown but doesn't smell too bad. So I guess its time for change. Problem is that my local garage wont touch the car (box) neither would two others that I phoned. The 'how to' pages make it out to be a straightforward job, so I cant understand why every mechanic within blast radius is running for the hills. Should I persevere with other 'local' garages or bite the bullet and put it in with Ford? Problem is I don't want to remortgage my house! ???

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by PJDavis on Sep 6^th, 2016, 5:15pm

You might hope that there is a keen member near you in South Wales. I don't think I'd bother with a run of the mill Ford Dealer, most of their mechanics probably haven't seen a Scorpio before. If you found a Ford Dealer that had an 'Old-Fella' that has been working there forever, that might be your best bet. You could try a 'local' garage, but you need someone that is caring and knows how to do the job without referring to a manual except maybe for torque settings. Your best bet is by recommendation from a current member, if the garage is far away you might off-set the cost of mileage by knowing the garage will do a good job for a reasonable price. Unfortunately I'm about as far away as you could get, in North Scotland. Or I'd do the job in about an hour (all being well) just for the price of parts and a bottle of 'Spicey'.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Sep 6^th, 2016, 5:16pm

I always thought company cars didn't need to have oil checked ?

Auto gearbox fluid starts out a nice cherry pink colour when new but does discolour with age so with 127k miles and probably original fluid that sounds normal. Does it shift OK ?
Changing the fluid is a messy job as there is no drain plug - yeah, well done Ford.
My Scorpio had 123k miles on it when I bought it and I had the fluid changed as a precaution at my local garage - they were happy to do it - about 2 or 3 hours labour at the most.
Try some other local garages or better still look for an auto gearbox specialist.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by podge on Sep 6^th, 2016, 9:03pm

Hi Chaps,
Very interesting comments re the gearbox oil - will get it changed when I get back home as Iam on holiday at the moment.
cheers,
Podge

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Sep 6^th, 2016, 11:37pm

Thanks, PJDavis for the offer but as you point out we are a little too far apart, pity! I would love to get into contact with another 'keen' member in South Wales as you suggested. However, despite posting previous requests for other members in south, or indeed any other part of Wales to come forward, no one has. The closest i've come was in the seen by you section (post N323) and that wasn't even a member. Oh well! Regarding the use of a Ford garage I take your point as the last time I was there the average 'mechanics' age looked about twelve. Only Kidding!! That said Ford mechanics do a fab job but as you say an older mechanic with Scorp auto box experience would in all likelihood be preferable. :)

Mike, I'm Probably going to continue searching for an auto gearbox specialist as you suggest. There isn't an immediate issue as this car is quiet and changes gear faultlessly, unlike my first Scorpio. However I'm now alerted to the fact that I need to change the oil as soon as I can get it done. :) By the way is it likely that It would be the same oil from new. I've had a quick look through the service history and haven't found evidence of an oil change yet :-/

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Sep 7^th, 2016, 11:31am

Don't forget to order a new pan gasket, filter screen & 'O' rings - auto gearbox specialist might have them in stock or your local Ford dealer will probably have to order them in.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Sep 7^th, 2016, 6:30pm

Thanks Mike. But at the risk of appearing stupid is a filter screen a filter or a secondary item along with the filter? Also would you trust parts from a motor factor or would 'genuine' Ford parts be preferable. Incidentally, still cant find evidence of a previous oil change but I have mislaid a fair chunk of the service history as the missus has 'thoughtfully' tidied my paperwork 'piles' up. ::)

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Sep 7^th, 2016, 7:18pm

I think the term 'filter screen' is the correct term for this type of filter - it is a 'screen' type filter with a fine mesh. Don't worry, it is this 'filter' which will need to be changed when you change the fluid - as far as I am aware there is just the one filter.
If you get the parts from Ford they may come as a kit rather than individual items but you would need to check with the parts guy.
Doubtful the fluid will have been changed before - don't think it is anywhere in the official Ford service schedule - no drain plug in the sump.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Sep 10^th, 2016, 1:32am

Hooray! Finally had a garage recommended by a mechanic who knows a mechanic who knows........ well you get the point. He says that he will do the job late next week for £50 as long as I supply the parts. That lead me to try finding the parts, I looked online but got a little flustered and gave up. I then phoned various motor factors including a large chain beginning with H, all said that they couldn't help. Today, or should I say yesterday the wife squeezed me into her tiny car and took me to Fords. I hoped that I sounded like I knew what I was talking about as I confidently rattled off my list. Thanks guys, including Mike who explained the filter to me.
All parts were available but had to be ordered in, 48hr delivery after placing the order. However, as Ford now consider Scorpios as classic cars they will not accept any returns, even in unopened packaging. But, apparently (according to the parts guy) there were two auto boxes? I'm having to go for the one recommended via the VIN. Hope that's right!

As a point of interest for those considering the same job, Fords prices are:
Part 6941997, Gasket, £55.86
part 4000411, Screen, £41.93
part 6152081, O ring, £1.71
part 1805856, Oil per ltr £19.08
Finally,I haven't bought anything yet as I was hoping someone could let me know which particular oil is suitable if bought elsewhere as Scorpios are no longer listed in the shops 'guide' booklets. I have seen oils for sale around £30 per 5 ltr. :)

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Simmo on Sep 10^th, 2016, 7:09am

Tony, I found This site (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-Ford-DP-M5-Transmission-Oil-1Ltr-1805856-/311536380982) which might help. If you look under 'contacts' there is a telephone number. :)

This one (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-MVATF5L-Trans-Power-Steering/dp/B003BPP5NI) looks even better.

I'd check with Comma (http://www.commaoil.com/passenger-vehicles/products/view/180/MVATF5L/) who I've always found to be very helpful.
:)

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Tompion on Sep 10^th, 2016, 1:08pm

There are are 2 O rings (not the same size).
Point out to your guy the later filters usually need the bolt shortening or packing out with washers - if you don't do this the filter won't seat on the O rings & air can be drawn in with the oil.

I've just bought an aftermarket gasket/filter set a lot cheaper although it has a rubber type gasket not the cork type with steel spacers used by Ford.

I'll post some details another time, I probably have the Ford finis no for the complete set on another computer.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Andycan on Sep 10^th, 2016, 4:05pm

I would suspect that a gearbox repairer/specialist would be able to get you all the parts you need or know who can. This is how I got the parts when I changed the gearbox oil on my Scorpio about 7 or 8 years ago and they were the proper parts but at a fraction of the cost that Ford wanted.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Sep 11^th, 2016, 11:21pm

I thank you all for the links suggestions and tips. You have between you answered most of my queries. However, I can't help but feeling held to ransom over the cost of parts. So! My 'hopefully' last two questions are as follows. Are their two different 2.3 auto gearboxes for '97 'P' cars as the Ford guy mentioned? And can anyone suggest an alternative source for parts that I may possibly not as yet tried. Thanks, Tony.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Tompion on Sep 12^th, 2016, 2:57am

The other O ring you need is 6117033

The aftermarket gasket/filter set I bought came from here:
http://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/vaico-2217837.html
It took just over 2 weeks to arrive so perhaps they don't keep them in stock - although I'd also ordered a different set for my Granada so that may have caused the delay.
You can also find it on ebay.

I'm not aware of 2 different boxes however the oil specified changed but whether there were any changes to the box I don't know:
ESP-M2C166-H (build date up to August ’96)
WSS-M2C202-B (build date after August ’96)

The change I believe is from semi-synthetic to fully-synthetic fluid. It is backward compatible. Personally it wouldn't bother me using either oil regardless of build date.

In my '97 2.3 saloon I used the early spec equivalent Comma AQ3 that was in the box from around 160,000 to 222,000 miles.

In my ’97 estate I recently used Granville ATF-MV an equivalent to the later spec which I’ll change to the later spec Comma AQ202 - I like to change it a second time a while later as you can’t get it all out.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Sep 12^th, 2016, 10:38pm

Thank you Tompion for the link that you sent. I shall be going through it later/tomorrow. Between you and everyone else I'll hopefully be getting the job done soon. By the way I particularly like the idea of changing the fluid a few months later in order to flush any old fluid out. A notion that would have been out of the question had I not been given great advice from you all. Thanks again, Tony. :)

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Oct 16^th, 2016, 1:36am

It's been more than a month but I've finally had the oil changed yesterday (Saturday). Parts came from Germany and got lost on the way, eventually arrived last week. However, I feel a little disappointed with the result. The oil is only a few shades lighter than before ending up a light brown. Also the mechanic only used four and a half litres of oil, Comma AQ202. In his defence I do realise that some oil would be stuck in the oil cooler radiator. Please could you advise me if I should repeat the procedure again and again until the oil is cherry red or would the gearbox life be extended with only one change. By the way car runs as well as before no better but more importantly no worse after a six mile test drive.
Thanks, Tony ???

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by a900one on Oct 16^th, 2016, 12:52pm

Hi Tony, if he only used 4.5 litres thats only about half the oil in the box. When I changed mine I did the filter and refilled the box, then removed the bottem pipe on the cooler and ran the engine to pump about a litre out before refilling. I kept doing this untill the oil was nice and pink coming out.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Tompion on Oct 16^th, 2016, 11:31pm

There's not a lot in the cooler, he should have drained it even if he didn't flush it. The rest of the fluid is in the torque converter which is what a900one was attempting to flush out.
Since presumably the muck has now been cleaned out of the sump & the filter changed you could have a further change done by extracting oil via the dipstick tube.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Oct 22^nd, 2016, 2:19pm

Sorry for taking so long to reply, laptop down. I was upset to say the least that there wasn't much colour difference to the oil, I had hoped it would have been closer to red. Both of the suggestions above are very much welcomed but how do I get the oil out of the dipstick tube as I don't have any specialist tools. Alternately, I would have to put the car into the garage again to remove the oil by any other method as I have difficulty bending or getting to the floor or getting up. The joys of ageing!!! I do confess that I feel cheated by the oil fiasco as I hate to let anyone touch the car. My usual garage have always been good with my cars over the years but they wont, for some reason, touch anything to do with the (auto) gearbox. That's why I went elsewhere. I have this uneasy feeling that the 'gearbox' garage may not have done a decent job with the filter as they should have known to change the oil especially as I supplied the filter and nine litres of fluid, half of which was sitting in the back of the car on collection. Any suggestions, Please.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Andycan on Oct 22^nd, 2016, 8:05pm

I would say they have not done a good job and if they are a gearbox garage they should have done a good job and known to drain the cooler and torque converter. I wonder if they did change the oil filter as it seems they were happy to take your money and not do a proper job.
As for getting the oil out of the dipstick most garages should have a suction pump with a very thin tube that would slide down dipstick into the sump and suck all the oil out.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Oct 22^nd, 2016, 9:34pm

The mechanic did show me a filter and gasket that were lying in a bowl on the garage floor. So I assume that these were changed as the used oily gasket and filter looked identical to the ones that I supplied. Also the oil was slightly lighter than it was previously. Car still runs as it did before, no better or worse. And yes I do agree that they didn't do a proper job. The worse thing is that I entrusted my 'priceless' car to them as they came by recommendation. :'(

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Andycan on Oct 24^th, 2016, 12:55am

I also wonder if they filled the gearbox up with the right amount of oil as in run the car to get the oil into the cooler and then top it up again so you might want to check the oil level and see.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Oct 24^th, 2016, 2:55am

I was so eager to pick up the car that I drove six miles for a test drive, then I checked the oil level. It was then I realised that the oil was not much different in colour than before. I have, because of good advice from various members, been looking on the internet for an extraction pump. When I finally get one I'll try pumping the fluid from the box. But, could someone let me know if the procedure is to 'simply' suck out all of the oil through the dipstick tube then refill the box or is there a specific order to follow in order to get the best results. Thanks, Tony.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Tompion on Oct 24^th, 2016, 11:51am

What you'd be doing is another partial change. You probably have 50% old left so another change would give you 25% old remaining. It's best done with the oil hot as it's easier to pump. It can be difficult get past the step where the dipstick tube meets the box, mark the extraction tube with the length of the dipstick & make sure the tube goes in further than that. Assuming the level is correct, measure what you take out & put the same amount back. If you want a higher percentage new fluid you'll have to disconnect the return as a900one suggests & is also outlined on the fluid change webpage posted earlier.

Title: Re: auto gearbox oil
Post by Fat Tony on Oct 24^th, 2016, 6:00pm

a900one's suggestion to remove the pipe would be best but sadly I can't crawl under cars as I used to. To do this I would have to put the car into another garage and take the chance of being ripped off again. Sadly the only option open to me is to remove the oil via the dipstick. Which, never having to work on an automatic before would never have occurred to me. Thanks to all, I'll let you know how I get on when I get the pump and get around to doing the job. Thanks again, Tony.