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        General >> Problems >> start up rattle !
        
(Message started by: shaunskiman on Feb 8^th, 2005, 2:20pm)

Title: start up rattle !
Post by shaunskiman on Feb 8^th, 2005, 2:20pm

Hi People, I've had my 24v scorpio for just a week it's got 83000 on the clock I park it facing down a slope ! there as been no problems rattles etc on start up until these last few cold mornings. the engine rattled on start up on sunday last and today it sounds like a thrust bearing gone type rattle if thats any help ? but it has nt happened every day, could this be that hydrolic cam tensioner thingey ? it rattles for about 2 - 3 seconds but boy was it loud, any help much appreciated
Cheers Shaun I.... Oh its on an N 1995

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Dave on Feb 8^th, 2005, 2:54pm

Hi Shaun. Prepare for a lot of replies on this... pretty sure this is very common.

Mine does it too, and i'm pretty sure it's the timing chain rattling initially due to lack of lubrication.

You might need to have the tension checked/tightened.

An oil change could help. Also, having an oil filter with a non return vavle (is that right?) is a MUST for scorpios. Mine doesn't. My brother explained this in great detail.. to cut a long story short, the correct oil filter with the valve should ensure there is plenty of oil at the top of the engine the second you start it.

My rattle has been bad over winter, sounds like a transit van. But due to me not driving it much at all - i'm still really ill - and having little money, i've left it and it's much better now the weather has come round.

Anyway.. read other's posts because they'll be a lot better than mine!

Good luck.
D

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Baz on Feb 8^th, 2005, 3:21pm

Shaun,

I have always (with both of my Cosworths) kept the accelerator pedal pressed while I turn the engine over (until the oil pressure light goes out) take your foot off and mine starts everytime with no rattle. Apparently doing this lubricates the chain tensioners (or something like that anyway) and this takes up the slack prior to the engine firing

My current car doesn't actually rattle without doing this but I do it anyway!!

Baz

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Dave on Feb 8^th, 2005, 4:35pm

Hey Baz, went past you at the Philip Alex today! Car's looking good. Bit dirty though.....

:P

D

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Baz on Feb 8^th, 2005, 9:07pm

I know. I keep meaning to get it washed. I had a feeling you may go past today, should have called in for a brew!!

Did you see the front of Johns Shop? Some woman in a Fiesta decided it would be a good place to park!! The same thing happened to him just 4 days before he opened, some woman in a Volvo thought the front of the shop needed some alterations!!

I was just sorting out his TV distribution.

PS,

did you notice the number plate??

Baz

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 8^th, 2005, 9:35pm

hello shaunskiman .. If ..and I impress only If ..it is the chain that's noisy ..< there can be other reasons >..then the chances are that you have the earlier tensioner fitted on a 95 Scorp and it needs looking at and/or updating .. if it's had the later type fitted to the drivers side then it's recognised that it should have a white paint mark visible .. the newer tensioner is definitely improved but it's by no means guarantees a cure .. if there's noise then there is wear and the guides are extremely suspect ..Ford incorrectly say leave well alone and many members have their own views on this ..the point is that the cost is only approx £100 to change it and find out .. after that its a chain job ..before it becomes a few thousand pound engine job . Oil changes ..different oils ..prelubes .. using WOT relay starting ..correct Ford oil filter ..etc ..all help but the only cure is to bite the bullet and sort it early ... and only have it done at a recognised specialist or by yourself even .. blown engines often follow this job being carried out by the inexperienced .. I personally am dealing with at least six court cases on behalf of Scorpio owners at present ..regarding garages < reputable one's too > ..that have incorrectly carried out this work and are having to re-imburse customers for damaged engines .. sorry to sound pessimistic but that is what you are facing .... tensioner first though without a doubt ... regards ......STN

ps. It's only my own view but I also deal with quite a few chain jobs ..after tensioners have been fitted and I'm becoming suspect that the extra tension may even overload the heat damaged and brittle chain guides .

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by mr._floppy on Feb 9^th, 2005, 6:33pm

I wonder why the Ford Scorpio engine designers decided to go for chain rather than belt drive for upper engine camshafts?

( I ain't complaining, I think limited life cambelts are a money making exercise for the garage industry with very little advantage over chains )

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 9^th, 2005, 8:16pm

down to Cosworth on that particular engine I guess .. if memory serves I have a feeling that Cosworth wanted to spend a little more than Ford wanted ..so much that they actually fell out over it .. and I guess the limited production run meant few improvements were carried out as in many other models .. very rare though for a chain to actually go kaput < without other circumstances of course > ..but the guides themselves were always weak .. a better material would no doubt have surfaced if the production had continued .. hmmm ... maybe .. :-/ .... our development car is running stainless ones at the moment to see how everything holds up ... STN

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 9^th, 2005, 10:32pm

Savethenight that is very interesting about them chain guides, any chance of getting hold of some for when I rebuild my project BOB engine?

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 10^th, 2005, 6:59am

No problem Dave .. but when are you doing that job ? .. there is only about eight thousand miles on our car so far and I wouldn't like you to take any chances until we are pretty sure about it .. there is no worry about the guides of course but we are experimenting with the glues and guide material .. at the moment we are using an aircraft bonding and don't seem to have any problem .. but your welcome when the time comes mate ... cheers ........ STN

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Scorpioen84 on Feb 10^th, 2005, 1:48pm

When startup rattle in norway we often say its the valve lifters, valvesprings.? Does anyone know what i mean.? And can translate it better... heheee...
Oilchange may cure it,.,.,.,.,.

Is it usual that the oilfilter got non return valve.?

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Eric_R on Feb 10^th, 2005, 3:17pm

This is a very interesting discussion. You may have checked out http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/timingchain29cos.htm about this issue.
I'm not sure about STN's mention of Ford and Cosworth 'falling out' about the design of the engine. Cosworth's brief was to use the standard 2.9 cologne block without changes and to build it into a more modern 24V with hemispherical heads - since they were not allowed to tinker with the engine block itself (this would have required re-tooling for a separate production line) then they would have had no option but to continue using a wet timing chest - and chain timing has been in use for a very long time.

I'm not sure we can point immediately to the chain guides as the definite problem. Are they weak? Or are they being battered by a sloppy chain in the second or so of cold starting because the RHS tensioner has not pumped up? Surely we should point in that direction first - if the chains were properly tensioned from the start then the chain would not be slapping about and we would then expect the guides to last a lot longer.

The suggestion that the Ford filter has a non return valve - and cheap ones do not - fascinates me. The modern engine oil filters are a full-flow type - that is, all of the oil passing to the main bearings is filtered through the cartridge. In order to protect the oil flow in case a neglectful owner fails to change the filter there is a pressure-releif valve in the oil filter cartridge itself. The protects the oil flow from being blocked by a clogged filter - obviously this would be disastrous, and the valve opens if the pressure drop across the filter is too great. Perhaps it is this valve which has been seen by someone who has misunderstood its purpose.
To prevent oil draining from the system there is a one-way valve built into the oil pump itself if the design of the oil pump allows draining. Placing this valve some inches above the sump inside the oil filter itself would have no effect at all.

The tensioner issue has been recognised by Ford, who have issued a replacement on a TSB. If the chain rattle is an issue then this should be changed first. It can be carried out by an owner, which has a marked impact on the cost. If the new tensioner and good quality oil does not cure the rattle then it's up to the owner whether to rely on the WOT trick or go the whole hog and change the lot.

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by shaunskiman on Feb 10^th, 2005, 6:46pm

Can I thank you all for your ideas on my cosworths problem Eric R & STN to mention two, the replies have given me a bit to think about, the last two days have not produced a rattle but what does tomorrow hold ? ??? As the last service was 12 months ago and 7000 miles ago I think I will check it into Vospers Ford in Plymouth for a service and have the tensioners and chains replaced thats as long as it does nt cost a packet :o After following this site for over a year I knew what I was letting myself in for on upgrading my 20 16v for my new baby
Cheers Guys
Shaun I.... :'( 8)

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by howiedintheplace on Feb 10^th, 2005, 8:02pm

STN
Yeah not in that much of a hurry mate, so keep on racking up the miles. What you gonna do strip the timming chain down after about 15,000 to see what's happening?

I know of a few ongoing ideas myself, how about a girdle to fit on the bottom end so it can rev to 7000 rpm with out cracking the bottom end & a twin turbo conversion.
Both are nearing completion.
Nobody messing with the chains thou so keep it up STN
as it does appear to be a problem with the BOB.

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Eric_R on Feb 10^th, 2005, 11:26pm

Howied,
;D
Twin turbos? Nah. I fancy supercharging myself - one of those low-loss independant kits with the intercooler, runs on standard fuel and compression ratio - and doesn't need plumbing into the oil system - have a look at http://www.procharger.com/
;)

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Baz on Feb 10^th, 2005, 11:35pm

Why not go the whole hog and buy a space shuttle??!!

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 11^th, 2005, 1:53am

HI Eric .. I'm not sure either about the Cosworth rumour but I remember it from somewhere ..i'll do a little research and confirm ..but it certainly wasn't about the " design " of the engine ..but just that they wanted to "go the extra mile " ..and Ford didn't .. what the extra mile was I have no idea .. but I feel pretty sure that it will have surrounded engine reliability issues and I was suggesting that in my opinion that may well have gone at least as far as strengthening certain components .. I note your speculation regarding the chain and tensioner wear destroying the guides first and of course that can happen in some engines .. but with almost all engines we strip while researching this problem ..the chains are barely stretched at all whilst virtually every guide shows signs of heat damage ..warping ..cracks ..and most have actual pieces broken away. I'm sure that you have seen these guides yourself many times and the Cossie's are unmistakeable ..as the broken pieces simply crumble between your fingers .. my view is that the timing chain is not the weak link in the system, it is the related components that cause the inherent problems. Plastic guides are less expensive to produce and are quieter...it's known that the drawback is breakage... over many miles and temperature cycles, the plastic fatigues, becomes brittle, and ultimately breaks away. The timing chain loses tension resulting in less static timing control ..broken plastic guide pieces block the oil pump pick-up and starve the engine of oil...then left un-attended to .. chain wear and stretch is accelerated. I am trying to find out what material was used in the injection moulding of the guides < with great difficulty > ..the recognised industry leader is Stanyl 46 nylon as you probably know ..and we use this in race engines without any problems .. Ford do use Stanyl but i'm certain the Scorp isn't ... metal backed guides seem to be the way to go I reckon ... we'll see anyway .. it's also quite interesting when members refer to the rattle .. that there are in fact TWO morning or " cold " rattles .. very similar but one is more harsh than the other and it does actually indicate tensioner and/or guides .. anyway ... I'm rambling again ... regards .........STN

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by SaveTheNight on Feb 11^th, 2005, 2:13am

ahh ... you're a " blower " man are you Eric .... here ya go then !!

http://www.powercraftengineering.com/files/garage_pics_697.jpg

http://www.powercraftengineering.com/files/garage_pics_707.jpg

http://www.powercraftengineering.com/files/garage_pics_714.jpg

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by scorpio_man on Feb 11^th, 2005, 10:47am

i'd like one of them!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D 8)

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Kjelle on Feb 14^th, 2005, 12:43pm

Hi guys!
have anybody asked the cosworth co about the tensioners and chainguides? And do they have any resolution about it!
best regards
Kjelle,,,,,,

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Paul B on Feb 14^th, 2005, 5:48pm

I think someone has asked them. But I'm not sure they're very interested in 'our' engines. :'(
Or was that a bad dream I had? :-/

STN... Just noticed the reg no. on the Chevy. UXB!!! :D (DANGER - UXB)

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Kjelle on Feb 16^th, 2005, 12:16am

Maybe we shall do a list, there all who have problems with tensioners and chainrattle can sign up!
Cant we have an spec topic in this forum too about this problems?
Perhaps the Ford and Cosworth co dont knows how
many we are with those problems >:(

Kjell..

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by shaunskiman on Feb 23^rd, 2005, 6:01am

Left work this morning at 5 am it was -2 started the cossy and boy did she rattle, it went on for so long I thought it may be the end :o I'am beginning to wish I stayed with my 16 valve 2.0 slug.
STN Where for art thoe in Devon I may have work coming your way (engine) I work in totnes and I call Saltash Home....... 8)

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Scorpioen84 on Feb 25^th, 2005, 12:51pm

Ive chanhed oil and oilfilter on my 2.0...
But it still rattles, it IS the chain, does it not do anything to greas it up..? Like a stiff bicyclechain.?

-8 to -15 here now...

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by Tobbe on Mar 10^th, 2005, 7:37pm

Did install an engine preheater in the freezing plug next to RHS tensioner the other day so now at start up there is no rattle anymore. It's a 600w electric heater and when it's -15c everything sounds real good at start up.

//Tobbe

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by nick on Mar 10^th, 2005, 10:15pm

STN
Is it me or can i remember Ford and Coworth disagreing about the service intervals for the BOB, Cosworth wanted oils and filters changed at 6000 miles and Ford wanting 10000 miles.
I dont know where I got this but it seems to be stuck in there, but I change oil at 5-6000, but i know this is fruitless if the damage has already been done,but it does keep the rattle to a minimum.
I remember mt old 3.0 essex, with the usual blown head gasket, filling number 6 with water. I could not be bothered to do it and just lived with it, till i lost 4-5&6, then I had to tackle it.
I needed to replace the shells and mains anyway, and regrind the crank, and hone the block, and acid dip the block, and hone the heads, etc, etc.

nic

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by sardine on Mar 10^th, 2005, 10:42pm

My 95 cosworth rattles as in my other post but my concern ( and I imagine several other people's) is not the rattle but the impending failure of my engine if it 'jumps'

For example - my ford probe rattles for a couple of seconds when cold until the hydraulic tappets quieten down - so do most - it's nothing so I totally ignore it.

Suppose the following is true - as scorpios age the chain lengthens and the guides deteriorate in most cases. Also as scorpios age a combination of factors increase the liklihood of chain slipping problems aside form the above -
what I think I'm saying (hoping) is that a proportion of cars will run into trouble and odds are that they will have rattled in the months preceding the problems but not that a rattling car is destined to die shortly.

What would be interresting is if anyone knows of a scorpio that ran into serious engine trouble due to the timing chain which did NOT rattle at startup?

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by nick on Mar 10^th, 2005, 10:50pm

Go to the main site and look at the timing chain rebuild, there is some pics of a broken chain, and its ver interesting reading.

People forget the main site will answer most common problems we have with our cars, cos someone else will have had the same bother

This is a fantastic starting place

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/index2.htm

HTH

NIC

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by SaveTheNight on Mar 11^th, 2005, 9:07am

nic ... i have already mentioned that I seem to remember more than one " disagreement " between Ford ..and Cosworth over the BOB ..but I am not certain ..but of course you are spot on ! ..5000 miles isn't over the top at all < in fact I change mine at 3-4k always> as I think does Snoops.. not sure about Eric but I bet he doesn't leave it much longer .. one point that I do try to keep making though is that ANY rattle is a sign of wear/impending failure ..any attempts at pre-lube...oil changes..specific oil..tensioners ..etc ... are all helpful but there is no substitute for sorting it properly ..costly yes.. but nothing resembling the alternative ... trying to shut the stable door after the horse has bolted ..is my view .... STN
we have probably all had Mini's or various older cars with timing chains happily rattling on for years no doubt ... but engines just ain't like that these days :-/

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by admin on Mar 12^th, 2005, 2:03am

on 02/23/05 at 06:01:07, shaunskiman wrote:

Shaun

Station Garage in Topsham did mine so they now have experience of doing the job and they are nice people too.

Steve

Title: Re: start up rattle !
Post by shaunskiman on Mar 12^th, 2005, 5:17pm

Hi Steve
Many Thanks for that bit of info I will be following it up
Thanks again

Shaun I........