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Title: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 1st, 2006, 5:42pm Hello everyone, I'm a newbie here, having just got my first scorpio in April this year. I have to say this could be a long post, so if you can bear with me, many thanks. I bought my '98 2.3 dohc all singing all dancing ghia x estate in April, with the intention of having it lpg converted, which was done in June this year. I thought this was a great car, and would do everything I wanted it to do, and with the lpg conversion, at a very ecconomical price too. I do a fair amount of milage, like 25k a year, most of which is motorway driving. Having had the lpg conversion, everything was fine for 7k miles or so when one night without warning it suddenly exploded and I thought I'd become steam powered, let alone gas powered! The explosion erupted from the water connections to the lpg regulator(which apparantly heats the lpg to vaporize it), and so the finger was pointed at them. The people who did the lpg conversion were very quick to come out and asses and rectify the situation, replacing the plastic elbows which had failed, but which were obviously the weakest link in the cooling system. I have to say at this point, the car had given me NO indication that there was or might be any problem at all - temerature guage reading perfectly normal - well what I concieved to be normal, which was just above the blue section on the the guage for motorway running and exactly middway in traffic, heater working, water level correct etc etc. After the offending elbows had been replaced it was obious that the engine was now running much hotter than had been previously, and it was now noted that the temp guage is at the middway position all of the time once warm. It soon became obvious that I had much bigger problems, and to cut a long story a little shorter, it was subsequently diagnosed that the head gasket had failed. Once again the finger was pointed at the lpg conversion people, who then went all out to diagnose to root cause of the problem, which turned out to be a thermostat stuck closed. (Yes, I have the said offending thermostat, and I can't get it to open in a pan of boiling warer either!!). Anyway, after repairs which have cost me just short of £900 I am now back on the road - well almost! The car runs great, but I feel convinced it is still running hot. The temp guage, as usual, is still middway, but even after 10 mins of running the engine is so hot that you can't touch it without burning ones self, and what's even more worrying is that now when it is idling in drive (it is auto), the oil warning light is flickering, which it never used to do, which is kind of telling me that the oil is so hot that it has lost all its viscosity. I feel I can now no longer trust this car, but as of now, it has to be the most expensive 8 year old scorpio on the planet and therefore I would really like it to do some work for me in return. I suppose there are only two things left to check, and they are the water pump and the radiator, but can anybody give me any indication as to which might be the culprit, or has anyone got any other idea's or experience's that may help, please. Or, am I just being paranoid here as, lets face it, up until these problems, I never had any cause to put my hand on the engine to see how hot it was, so maybe its ok, but the oil light thing is still a bit worrying! If you have managed to read all this I thank you, and I await any advise which may be forthcoming. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by scorpio_man on Oct 1st, 2006, 6:07pm hi there the gauge should sit at just above half way (2.30pm on a watch) because of the lpg. engine will be hot (very)! all scorpio's are like that for some reason. :-/ the temp sender/sensor costs about £15 and should be changed only if the dial moves about a lot. thermostats always seem to fail on the 2.3. ??? re the oil. when was it changed? what's in it? should be a very good quality sae 5w-30 semi or fully synthetic oil. national (http://www.national.co.uk/specials.asp) do a good deal on oil changes (£25). might be an idea to change it and see if the light stops. is there any other issue(s) to make you think all is not well with the car now? are the engine fans working correctly? coming on in slow mode with the a/c, and fast mode to cool the engine? things like that. let us know how you get on. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by clarkster on Oct 1st, 2006, 6:09pm If the oil light is flickering then that suggests low oil pressure. It could be that your oil pump is on its way out? Highly unusual though. Try an oil change first. The hot temp could be due to an airlock or blocked galleries in the radiator? Try reverse flushing the radiator, let the hosepipe give it a good 10 - 15 min alternating flush until the water runs clear. Engines usually do get too hot to touch, so dont worry about that. It might also be worth checking that your cooling fans are functioning correctly. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 1st, 2006, 6:23pm Hi, and thanks for quick response. The temp guage is not erratic, it stays at middway point since the head gasket job. When they did the head job they have billed me for new oil and filter which they say is synthetic, so have to presume this was done - have no idea of what was in there previous to this. As regards the fans. Before these problems I never ever noticed the fans on at all. After the initial explosion etc, they were coming on very quickly, and I presume in fast mode as they were very noticable. Since the head job, I suppose it is encouraging that they don't seem to be coming on at all now. I can't vouch for slow mode as I do not normally use the A/C, but will try that tomorrow and will let you know. Cheers. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by RichardMS on Oct 1st, 2006, 7:28pm When I first had my 2.3 I had problems similar to yourself, At first I thought it was the head gasket but when I took the head for some work it was discovered to be the head was cracked between cylinders 2 and 3 (common problem on the 2.3), It was an hairline fracture that the guy couldn't find at first, The problems I had also split the inlet manifold. This cost me just under £1,000 to do the work myself with new parts from Ford and a six week wait for the head to come from Germany, Not a year later and less than1,500 miles while making my way to Cornwall for our holidays the engine siezed, No warning nothing. The temp guage has always read just above the halfway mark and the engine has always been so hot that you can't even put you're hand on the slam panel when at normal operating temp let alone the engine itself. I have since got two more engines, one now in the car and seems to be ok for the last 1,000 miles or so, and the other I have since found to be another damaged one with mayo in the sump. I have not bothered with a thermostat as I now don't trust them, I have also replaced the rad as I suspect this may have been the problem with mine initially. I would say that you either have an airlock after the T-piece failing or you're head or head gasket has failed. Try the airlock first. As for the most expensive 8yr old Scorpio then that would be mine, Don't think I have done 4,000 miles in it in the four years of owning it and it's cost me a fortune so it aint going anywhere yet ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by TiberiuS on Oct 1st, 2006, 8:30pm My 2.3 always runs around halfway on the temp gauge, always has done since I bought it 2 years/10,000 miles ago. Been reading again and again about this common fault on the 2.3 lately, starting to think I'm becoming paranoid... Regarding the temperature problem, I'd fit a new temp sender and see if the gauge reads the same and also change the oil for some good quality stuff and see how it runs afterwards. Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by RichardMS on Oct 1st, 2006, 8:46pm on 10/01/06 at 20:30:16, TiberiuS wrote:
I know what you mean Bruce, After all the problems I had, I still think i'm going to break down every time I go out in mine :'( |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by jonnycab on Oct 1st, 2006, 11:30pm Oil light flickering may be due to the oil pump, but could be as simple as sludge in the engine. When they changed the oil do you know if they flushed the engine first to remove old deposits. Draining old oil & replacing it with new oil is no good if there is sludge in the sump, 'cos the new oil will become contaminated very quickly. :) As for the engine being hot. My 2.3 feels really hot & the front cross member seems to heat up a fair bit as well, but my temp gauge is always smack bang in the middle (new temp sender) so I don't worry about it :) |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by Bobbit on Oct 2nd, 2006, 8:02am My 2.3 temperature gauge pointer has always sat in the middle of the gauge. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 2nd, 2006, 8:51am Thanks everybody for replies and comments, - it seems I'm not alone with these problems! To RichardMS - as regards the head being cracked. I've read this before that these engines have this problem, but if my garage can be trusted (???), then the head has just been preasure tested, skimmed etc, and had all the valves re-seated and ground in so everything should be ok in that department. The oil looks clean on the dipstick, and no sign of creamy stuff on the filler cap etc, but the oil does look very thin, so I think that might be worth changing again, and I think the radiator would be my next thing to look at - I am at the moment trying to find out if they bothered to check this whilst they had it in bits!! I think I have become totally paranoid about this now. I need this car for my business, and cannot be doing with feeling unsure whether or not I'm going to get there everywhere I go, not to mention the damage to my own credibillity for reliability. Might just have to cut my losses and get rid whilst its still running, shame though really, 'cos its a nice car, and I really like driving it! |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by tintin on Oct 2nd, 2006, 5:44pm am i reading this wrong? surely the temperature guage should warm up to half-way and stay there? thats what all cars do.... if it was running just above the blue surely it was too cold? the point of the thermostat is to keep it at the ideal temperature regardless of what kind of driving the car is doing. engines will be too hot to touch? my cossie gets very hot to touch, but guage is half-way (after 5 mins) and scans show 210F which seems ok to me. ive done 6000 miles like that. ive never owned a car that i could touch the engine after a run ??? sorry if i have misunderstood, but i dont get what makes you think it is overheating? i know the feeling, when i first got mine, it sprung a leak at the thermostat, and i am constantly checking the temperature now, after 9 months my confidence is returning. agreed on the oil change again ;D start with the cheap options, ive learnt that one on this car...... |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by RichardMS on Oct 2nd, 2006, 7:07pm on 10/02/06 at 17:44:59, tintin wrote:
The temp guage is not the best as it didn't give me any warning at all, The engine temp I have never had one engine get as hot as this before, with all my other cars I have been able to take the plugs out, although they are quite hot, but the 2.3 in the Scorpio I can't even touch without burning myself, starting to get a little bit of confidence back in mine now, but I think it will be a while before I can think it will be fine every time I go out in it :-[ |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 2nd, 2006, 9:39pm Hi once more, The whole point with the temp guage thing is that it isn't doing what it did before all these problems arose. Before the probs, and from when I aquired the car the guage sat just above the blue line on main road and motorway driving, only going up to the middway point in traffic, but to me that is what it has always done and therefore normal. Now it runs at middway all the time irrespective of driving conditions so something has changed. I accept it is possible that it was wrong before and now its ok, but that doesn't explain the oil light flickering - still seems excessivly hot to me, but will definitely do an oil change regardless. I have spoke to a radiator specialist today, and he feels that as the rad is hot all over its unlikely to be that, that is the cause. I'm also going to investigate the airlock possibility as when you squeeze the top hose it doesn't feel like there is much water in it - I believe someone has posted a cure for airlocks with a long tube connected to the small overflow tube on the side of the header tank - I think thats worth a try Incidently, my temp guage gave me no warning at all that I had any problem whatsoever either, water level was also correct a couple of days before the first incident, also no white smoke, no sludge, etc. Many thanks. PB |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by Simmo on Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:38am The method you are after is the 'Johnnycab' method. Detailed on this thread (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1150805119;start=8#8) |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by xr6i on Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:17pm my 12v v6 temp runs in the blue and has lovely hot air that blows out of the blower, however, mines a v6 and yours is a 2.3 and im now put off in swapping mine for a 2.3. Ive got probs with mine as of last saturday, the matrix is trickling water out. Any way, if i was you, i would change the expansion tank cap, then if no different, change the temp guage anyway, as ive found that once they boil they are useless, but then the thermostate. maybe that will bring the guage down to the blue section. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by bizzay1 on Oct 3rd, 2006, 5:27pm on 10/02/06 at 21:39:59, pbproms wrote:
mine was exactly the same before h/g went, this ended up being a cracked head and when I brought it home from the garage I found it had chucked all it's water out of the cracked inlet manifold (that they missed)and still the guage sat in the middle :-/ it does seem to be a very hot engine |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by TiberiuS on Oct 3rd, 2006, 6:37pm No engine is designed to run so cool that it spends all its time in the blue section of the temp gauge, some high performance engines are designed to run hot anyway. Logic seems to point at the middle of the gauge being where the engine normally spends most of its time. The Scorpio has always hovered around halfway, sometimes just under, occasionally a tad over in heavy traffic but it takes a few miles to get there, even on fast roads so I don't think there's a cooling problem there. Your 12v sounds a bit cool to me, never known a V6 hover in the blue all the time :). Strange thing though, agreeing with Richard, the Scorpio has been the most reliable car I've owned yet I never trust it, never feel at ease taking it far and I dread being stuck behind a slow truck or something because I have to push it so hard to overtake, long before I knew about the head problems I pondered over the 2.3 being too much for an overbored Zetec and had the visions of clouds of smoke pouring out in the middle of a Motorway... Just a thought, any problems with the 2.3 fitted to the Galaxy? Something tells me that me and my 2.3 will be parting company sooner rather than later :) Bruce. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 3rd, 2006, 8:38pm Hello again, Well, I must thank everyone for their comments and experiences, I'm quite surprised how many people seem to have had a similar problem of one sort or another. Today, I tried the 'johhnycab' method of bleading the cooling sysem, as directed to by 'simmo' - cheers. I was able to fill it with another kettle full of water after this process although I did lose some along the way, but not a kettle full! (I revved it to about 3000 for a few seconds and when I released the throttle it spued a blue fountain of hot water for a couple of seconds which took me quite by surprise, - but no casualties luckily!! - I wonder if this reaction is significant at all). I then took the car for a spin, about a 10-12 mile round trip including dual carrigeway. Not much difference, guage still sat right in the middle, but, engine still felt very hot to me. I also checked the fans in slow mode with A/C and they are working fine, but didn't manage to get them to come on in fast mode - maybe it is me being paranoid after all !!! The downside is that even though the car came through this test ok, the oil light was still flickering slightly on idle. The garage who did the h/g said they have put the ford reccommended oil in it ie; 5/30SAE synthetic I believe. I have had this changed this afternoon with 10/40 semi-syth, but have not yet had time to test drive, will do so tomorrow. I have to say, I am now feeling a little more confident. However, we have a 600 mile business trip to undertake on Friday, and at the moment our trusty old peugeot 405 deisel is still the favorite to make the trip unless I can cover some miles in the Scorpio between now and Friday without any problems whatsoever, - any bets??? |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by Kjetil S on Oct 3rd, 2006, 8:47pm It will take quite a while to get the fans running full speed. I drove around for a year or so believing the fans could be shot until one day I let the car idle for half an hour or so on the driveway and I suddenly heard a faint buzz from the front. ;D |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by TiberiuS on Oct 3rd, 2006, 9:13pm Most people say the 2.3 always hovers around halfway on the gauge, if you want peace of mind you could fit a new temp sender or just see how it goes. The question now is whether the 2.3 in general has a problem with blowing cylinder heads and why as it seems a lot of people on here have come accross this problem, some debate on this would help us owners who haven't yet suffered a blown head to work out what to do :) Bruce. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by jonnycab on Oct 3rd, 2006, 11:37pm I am finding hard to see what the problem is here ??? (as tintin did).... If the temp guage is in the middle then the cooling system must be working correctly. All temp guages should sit in the middle....not too hot, not too cold....just right :) I don't think you needed to do the 'Jonnycab method ;D'. If you have an airlock then the temp guage tends to be a bit erratic. And you probably revved it a bit hard, you only need gentle revs just so the anti-freeze travels up the pipe & not out of it. If it shoots out then you won't see the air rising up behind it. ;) Also the 2.3 should take 5/30 oil & it is very runny, almost like water. I've owned my 2.3 since February this year. Just after I bought it I had to change the heater matrix as it was leaking. :( Since then my cooling system has been fine apart from the inlet manifold being cracked near the ECT. I have now managed to successfully repair it with a hot knife & plenty of quick steel. :D My engine always feels hot to touch & even when taking the spark plugs out I have to wait at least half an hour 'cos they are so hot. ::) As most of you know, I use my Scorp as a taxi & since I bought it I've done 15,000 miles in 7 months, & the 'super hot' engine hasn't exploded yet....touch wood....or fake walnut. ;D |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 4th, 2006, 9:16am Thanks Jonnycab, I understand exactly what you are saying, and it is probably me being too paranoid. We will just have to see how it goes from now on. I also agree that the book says it should have 5/30 oil, but I can't vouch that this is what it contained before the explosion, and I had no oil light flicker then. All I know is that with it in it now it appears to be down on oil preasure - now do I assume that the bottom end is also shot or is the oil getting just that bit too hot?? If so, that kind of takes us full circle!! I will be running the car today, so we'll see how it goes and whether or not we still have oil light flicker, probably not as she's now on slightly thicker oil. Anyway, I thought it was both accepted and normal to run older engines on slightly more substancial oil than new ones, after all, 95,000 miles down the line there's forced to be a bit of ware there somewhere. One question, - will the 10/40 oil do it any harm?? Bruce, you debate idea sounds good to me, but I would not really know how to kick it off because as said before by me and others this problem does not seem to throw up any symptoms to warn you. Before you know where you are your into the best part of a £1000. I do think changing the thermostat on a regular basis would be a good start, and anyone who has not suffered these problems would be advised to do just that if you do not know the stat's age, after all £10 for a stat and a minimal amount of time to fit it is a heck of a lot better than what me and others have been through. I suppose the motor factors are going to comlain that there's a rush on Scorpio 2.3 stat's now!!!! |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by jonnycab on Oct 4th, 2006, 10:38am The thermostat you have fitted....is it a genuine Ford one or a pattern part? I have found that pattern ones don't really fit the 2.3 :) |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 4th, 2006, 11:19am Hello jonnycab, I didn't fit the stat personally, the garage did. They were quite adament about using the genuine ford h/g kit (which incidentally cost £150) so can only assume that is is a ford one but not sure, I will have to ask them. - They are getting a little p----d off with me I think, but as you know I am not convinced that the job has been done totally correctly yet!! :-/ |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by tintin on Oct 4th, 2006, 12:56pm i dont want to set the hares racing, but what made them think the h/g was needing replaced? from what i read, the lpg guys are correctly diagnosing your issues and fixing them (ie firstly a dodgy water pipe elbow, and then a u/s thermostat). not sure what symptoms were pointing to a h/g issue? what did it fix by doing it? how was it £900 for a h/g job, thermostat and one replacement elbow? its easy to convince yourself its a major problem with these cars, when often its not. i am the worst for this (see my post on dodgy fuel, which then turned into my engine has blown, turned out to be a dodgy spark plug! £20 to fix). when i first got my car, it started leaking from the engine bay, ford mechanic said h/g, i was preparing for the worst, guys (thanks Highlander) here pointed me to a secretive water pipe which balloons, which it turned out to be! this car has only failed to get me home once, and it had given me plenty of warning signs (g/box failed) |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by tve on Oct 5th, 2006, 6:40am Переверните термостат таким образом, чтобы поток охлаждающей жидкости помогал приоткрываться термостату, а не запирал его при высоких оборотах. Мне решение помогло. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by tve on Oct 5th, 2006, 6:46am Invert the thermostat so that the coolant flow helped the thermostat to be slightly opened, instead of locked it(him) on high speed. The solution has helped to me to be saved of the torn hose pipes in a cooling system and deformation of a body of the thermostat. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 5th, 2006, 12:39pm Hello everybody, Well, I set off on my test run this morning and only managed to get about 25 miles. The problem does not seem to be the temperature/cooling anymore, but the oil preasure now!! The car developed a rattle niose which according to the RAC man sounded like tappets, - to me it just sounded like a diesel. I dont think it was bottom end, the noise wasn't heavy enough. Anyway its now on its way back to the same garage who did both the LPG conversion and the H/G job - I'm not convinced they know what they are doing, but I dont see what chioce I've got as this as happened so soon after they have done the H/G job, and there was no sign of lack of oil preasure before they did the job, even as hot as it got with next to no water in it. I'm a little concerned tho, cause they have already tried to suggest that it might be the oil pump because of how hot it did get, but will have to wait and see what they find. will keep you posted. :-[ >:( :'( |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by Simmo on Oct 5th, 2006, 4:17pm Is the oil filter new? and if so is it a genuine Ford part as the absence of a non return valve in the filter can cause a problem on start up as can the wrong grade of oil as it takes too long to reach the top end. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 5th, 2006, 5:06pm never been a problem on start up, light goes out straight away, but the answer to your question is I dont know, the oil and filter were changed by Kwik Fit 2 days ago, (and they had to order the filter in), and the cars only done the 25 miles this morning since that. The oil light problem started before the oil change, - I feel sure that this new problem has occured, and only occured since the H/G job, there were absolutely no oil preasure problems before the H/G. Even when the car went to them for that job and it was red hot and billowing steam from every possible orifice, the oil light was out. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by GrahamT on Oct 9th, 2006, 10:37pm Hi, can you get the garage to connect an oil pressure guage to the engine and tell you what the readings are at idle and at, say 2000rpm? When you say a rattle, is it the cam chain? Does it rattle from a cold start and then quiten down or ??? 5w30 oil is recommended because it has to get to the hydraulic lifters (tappets) and fill the cam chain tensioner, hence should be thin. Using 20w50 in older engines was an attempt to stop it squeezing past piston rings and valve stem seals. See how it goes with 10w40 but 95k is not a very high mileage really. See if you can get some oil pressure readings. Good luck, Graham |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by martin_rowe on Oct 10th, 2006, 8:25am I know its not a 24v, but is it suffering from the common 24v problem of a blocked oil pick up pipe strainer, very common after h/gasket / timing chain jobs. when the job is done bits of gasket ect find there way down into the sump & block the strainer. |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by pbproms on Oct 10th, 2006, 9:31am They have traced the problem to a bung of some sort in cylinder head oilway which they say had come out due to the excessive heat generated when the H/G went. This made it impossible for it to preasurize (oil) correctly, and the resulting rattle was the hydralic tappets etc. They apparently have it running again and they say all is well, but they are waiting for new temp guage sender unit and cooling fan sender unit, - they want to fit these to be absolutley sure that all is definitely well. They have also said that they are only going to charge me for the actual sender units this time - I should bloody well think so as well!! |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by bizzay1 on Oct 10th, 2006, 10:29am or was it something they left in there after changing the h/g, ask to see it and try to see what it is |
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Title: Re: 2.3-Overheating-Head Gasket-Thermostat-etc... Post by martin_rowe on Oct 10th, 2006, 12:43pm there is an oilway blanking plug in the head, it could have become dislogded if it got that hot. |
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