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        General >> Problems >> Conked out gearbox
        
(Message started by: xr6i on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:05am)

Title: Conked out gearbox
Post by xr6i on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:05am

Hello, can anyone please advise.

Scorpio 2.9 12v auto executive estate, bog standard non leather, no air con.

Not only do i have matrix problem at minute but this has now happened.

I had a problem with my auto gearbox recently and had been running round on low oil without realising, so 2 weeks ago i put a 1ltr top up of m2c-166h in, and it cured all the jerks and jolts, and i was getting prepared to change all the oil last week, however the joe bloggs from a local motor store sold me some m2c 33g/f fluid as he said it was better than the m2c-166h that they didnt have in stock. Anyway i took the 10 ltrs back on saturday as i wasnt convinced and the fact that id rang ford up and they said no, just use the m2c-166h fluid.

Anyway on saturday i was going to get the right fluid from another town, however the car nearly overheated, which was due to the matrix leaking, so i never got to get the spec fluid.

Now last night i had to pull out from a junction quite quick, and all of a sudden the first gear clonked out and the car revved like mad, but i eventually got it to drive but the gears were slipping. I then drove for about a mile to get to a petrol garage, and inside i was relieved that they had auto transmission fluid.

however on the bottle it said auto trans universal auto fluid. meets requirements of,
General motors, Ford, Allison c-4, Merc Benz 236.1, dexron 11D, Mercon, M2C 138, CI, and M2C-166.

So i bought it. £7 per 1 litre till i got some 10 ltrs today to do the job. I put it in the auto pipe, and drove off, however the car gears still slipped and it was hard to get it to drive. and then about 1 mile later the car wouldnt drive. however reverse is perfect. but no 1 2 3 or 4. so i got towed home.

if i go to put it in gear the engine revs dip, as if its ready to drive but theres nothing there, the car just revs.

When i got into the house i noticed the universal so called meets the requirement oil was of a brown colour with poss a dash of red in, but the propper m2c-166h fluid is blood red, and harder to wash off hands.
Im thinking that this fluid is the wrong stuff for the gearbox.

When i dip the stick the oil is black onto a white tissue.

Can i be saved if i drain all this oil out and fill up with the propper blood red m2c-166H fluid.

Any urgent help will be grateful on this matter as i will do it this afternoon. (wed 4th Oct 06).

Thanks.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by martin_rowe on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:16am

think its a bit late for oil changes, if the oil says it meets D11 spec that is ok, try removing the sump from the box to see if theres any debris or thick sludge in there, iff so you need another.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:21am

Sorry to say this, but there wont be any harm. You chould also change the filter/pan as well, just as important. Was your OD light flashing at all?

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by xr6i on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:34am

Hi,

Re; OD light, my 2.9 12v is just a normal 4 speed, 1,2,3,drive, N, R, PARK, doesnt have sports mode or overdrive.

I understand where your coming from re; the filter, its just that im on a tight budget at the min. and was hoping that i just havent wrecked the gearbox. if i have, then im out of a job.

Ill have to take the sump off and see whats there.

But please keep the advice coming in.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by xr6i on Oct 4^th, 2006, 8:42am

on 10/04/06 at 08:16:27, martin_rowe wrote:

think its a bit late for oil changes, if the oil says it meets D11 spec that is ok, try removing the sump from the box to see if theres any debris or thick sludge in there, iff so you need another.

When you say i need another, are you reffering to - another gearbox, or another oil change.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Eric_R on Oct 4^th, 2006, 3:20pm

Oh dear, m8. I don't this is good news. :'(
Your autobox is the A4LD, carried over from the Granada. 3rd and 4th changes, and the Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) are controlled by the EECIV engine management.

Have a look at http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/autogearbox.htm for fault diagnosis. From the sound of it, your gearbox fluid is showing the signs of terminal problems. You mention that the Matrix is being a problem - I take it you mean the engine coolant radiator rather than the heater matrix because you mentioned engine overheating, and it is possible that if the rad has gone some of the coolant has entered the gearbox (one section of the engine radiator also cools the autofluid). This causes havoc inside the gearbox, as I found out. Even if you change the gearbox fluid and filter without changing the rad the same thing will happen again.
Follow the diagnostic guide on the above page. Source an engine radiator first and fix that, then drop the autobox pan and have a look inside. If there's signs of rust on the metal parts there has been contamination and it may be possible to rescue the box with a complete fluid change. If not, then the black fluid is burnt or contaminated with friction or seals and the box will need reconditioning - or source a 2nd hand one. Use the dipstick on the replacement autobox to check the colour of the fluid - if its a clear red colour then the 'box is suitable - if not, don't touch it.
Simply changing the fluid may not last very long, and if the cause is the rad the 'box will fail again very swiftly.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by xr6i on Oct 4^th, 2006, 6:03pm

Im thinking that its the torque converter after looking at the diagnostic pages. im not going to change oil and waste money, i also just read about the rumble, which happened if i changed into 2nd if going slow, so im thinking torque converter is knacked, but then the fluid is black too, so i dont know.

So i will prob just sell the car for £200, cash my tax back in which i bought on saturday.

With regards to the heater matrix, thats now fixed. radweld cured that and now its sealed ill flush the system to get the rest of the radweld out.

if anyones interested in it pm me. otherwise it will be in the notts ad mag and loot.com this week.

cheers for all the help. im now off to find a decent car that doesnt involve a ford auto transmission.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by jonnycab on Oct 5^th, 2006, 3:13am

......xr6i slams the door behind him :(
"Darn it!!....that's another customer we've lost this week"....says Admin...."deserting a sinking ship they are" ;D

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Baw_Flinger on Oct 5^th, 2006, 8:25am

Some dont! Some hang anbout like a bad smell, well past their time.... ;) ;D

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by xr6i on Oct 5^th, 2006, 9:22am

Ive changed my mind, im gonna take the sump off and see whats what. Then at least ill know. Theres no cheap cars around at the mo.

If this car was a manual in the first place it would last for years. My friend did a sierra 2.3 auto to manual conversion 10 yrs ago. Then i put a 2.8 engine in, then after that xr4i s were cheap to buy. mine was 22 years old when i scrapped it due to head going and it was rotten.

I bet a 2.9 sierra manual would prob fit on the 12v scorpios. Trouble is they are rare now.

I dont know what id have done without this website though. So cheers everyone. Im not a gonna yet.

:)

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Kjetil S on Oct 5^th, 2006, 9:24am

Good to hear :)

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 5^th, 2006, 11:16am

It seems the A4 'box has some longevity problems, 100k miles seems about the lot for most of them. The 'box could be much better, some other manufacturers' (older) boxes last far longer, 250k is not unheard of. The box in my 2.3 failed almost as soon as I hit 100k, judging by the state of the car it had been driven mercilessly by the previous owner but these cars were built for execs doing motorway miles, harsh driving habits should be expected...

If you keep the car and get it sorted you'll grow to really like it, I'd never have bought mine if I'd known what trauma was in front of me but now I have it (mainly :)) fixed, deep down I'm loathe to let it go; for handling and comfort you won't better it unless you pay 3-4 times as much for a 5 Series/ E Class/ XJ. Or you could go and buy a naff run of the mill hatchback and still have more headaches than a dying autobox and a drippy matrix.

In short, the Scorpio is well built and well engineered and you won't get that much car for that little money anywhere else; you've hit one of the worst problems these cars can throw at you, get the box sorted and you shouldn't need to touch it ever again.

Bruce.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by tintin on Oct 5^th, 2006, 1:52pm

Hi,

my box went at 96k (no drive), i just bought a known good one from this site, and got a garage to swap them, £350 all in, sometimes the easiest option....

cheers

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by crop on Oct 5^th, 2006, 5:21pm

Well mine has done 191.000 and i dont think its had a new box...could be wrong
but if not is this a record, do i get a medal, cup, shield, anything...darn it ive never won anything and this looked like my best chance oh well.
ps...it used to be a taxi as well.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by jonnycab on Oct 6^th, 2006, 12:39am

Used to be a Taxi!!!....
...The reg isn't 'N129 AMF' is it?.......

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 6^th, 2006, 3:48pm

Hi, if your vehicle was presented to my transmission shop with symptoms you describe we would diagnose burned out clutches and seals internally. Don't mess about, get a decent firm to re-build it and it will be trouble free for years. Renew the converter at the same time as it will be contaminated with bits of burned gearbox and also the lock up plate will need re - lining as it will be as worn as the rest of the transmission. whole job should cost about £700 - £850 at a reputable re - builder. Dont go for a cheap job as most are cowboy outfits that will cause more grief than they will solve. If you really cant afford this get a known good secondhand unit fitted by someone who knows what they are doing, but remember it will be halfway plus through its serviceable life. Also pleeeeeeeease make sure whatever unit is fitted that the oil coolers and lines are flushed out with the proper equipment as these too will be full of debris from broken box !! The moral of this is do it right once and forget it, go for a cheap fix and you will end up fed up with all the resultant grief !! Hope this helps, Regards Dave.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by crop on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:11pm

Reply to Jonnycab

No its a 'p' reg ultima 2000 16v
I have to laugh but i think they are too good to be a taxi.
Its a toss up between this and an omega i had as to which is my best most comfortable car....not including an old vauxhall cresta 2.6 with bench seats and collumn change i had in the 80s. that was comfy.

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by pappa on Oct 9^th, 2006, 2:20pm

Hi all!

Sad story, hope there will be light in the other end of the tunnel.

I know a few dealers in Finland who has a small stock of NEW, not RENEWED,
but NEW, 2.3 DOHC + A4LDE Boxes with ECU's and accessories. I've been
thinking of buying one just to be sure that I would have an extra autobox
when mine blows... I've got 2.9 24V and estimate that I've got around 180
thousand kilometers on the clock. The autobox "feels" like it has seen some
road... :-/

But... "if it's working, don't touch it!" is my motto :-*

And the 2.3 DOHC + A4LDE package doesn't come free either, even though
I don't think it's expensive (1,900 euros)

I think I'll go for a spareparts car from Germany... I actually am going to get
one Granada Cosworth -93 (It's Scorpio for us) very soon from there and
uppgrade my -86 4x4 Granada with it's parts... Btw. It has the same autobox
in it ( without W, S, E ) - so you could be looking at those older models too
if you were looking for "cheap" spares.

There are nice spareparts in Germany...

Edit: 10.10.2006:
Decided to buy a 2.3 DOHC + A4LDE package at the price of 1750 euros! Will have a new autobox in stock, waiting for the disaster to come visiting...

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Penguin on Oct 10^th, 2006, 11:54pm

My autobox failed spectactularly in January (and in the middle of a flood in the Lake District as well). Brown and black oil, OD light all over the place, car changing gears randomly with no regard for the road conditions.

My host's garage (not an FMD) said it was even beyond rebuild, new or retread box and start again.

But ten months on I maintain it was the very best grand and a bit I've ever ever spent. The car has been magnificant and problem free ever since.

Superb!

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Snoopy on Oct 11^th, 2006, 9:28am

Pappa , Do I read it correctly?
Are you buying a 2.3 A4LDE auto box to put into your 2.9 24v?

If so then it will NOT last very long the A4LDE box in the 2.3 is not the same as the one in the 24v .. they 24v one has more clutches and brake bands to take the extra power and torque>

Title: Re: Conked out gearbox
Post by Dave2302 on Oct 11^th, 2006, 12:17pm

[]

It wont last 5 mins !!!! Some of the gearsets have extra torrington bearings too to take the extra torque.

Regards Dave