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        General >> Problems >> manic engine depression(and me!!)
        
(Message started by: grapevine on Oct 6^th, 2006, 7:16am)

Title: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 6^th, 2006, 7:16am

:D What a fabulous on-line website a giant servicing manual.

Where do I start, my 2.0l DOHC 16V had been misifiring albeit randomly for some time. I knew the wiring loom was cracked I bodged(repaired it!) with new bayonet connector 18 months ago.

Finally plucked up the courage to change the loom thanks to this site, and the Ford TIS CD which I purchased.

I took off the old loom but fiddly! and replaced like for like with the connectors....As the car was on axle stands and additionally supported by the 2 ton hydraulic jack, I decided to do an oil change....no problems, but filter very tight...used my trusty filter wrench...

replaced loom.....filled with oil...took 6 hours in all due to rain..cranked the engine nothing except clicks and what sound like a shorting noise ie.

Call RAC! nice guy found I had possibly cracked the elctrical connector on the starter motor during the filter removal. Now saturday, need new starter motor..simple halfords...tried to fit wrong orientation >:(
checked with motor factor apparently my vehicle has a starter normally fitted to an automatic vehicle!! no worries fitted proper starter.

Now the fun begins, no spark!! I religously followed the fault diagnosis..all relays engaging, all fuses intact!
change the crankshaft sensor!

Job done..engine starts...sounds very sweet, no flat spots or misfire! left engine idling to warm up slowly, turned off checked oil topped up to correct level.

took it for a drive, good accleration, at long last the random misfire and flat spot gone. Then suddenly power loss and white smoke coming out of the exhaust. :'( Now my wife not happy(her car)!

please help. checked the following
no coolant loss.
no water in oil
no apparent oil loss

car starts OK slight thumping noise, like a slow thudding sound.

this morning started OK but white smoke coming from the exhaust at idle!

During the above mentioned activity I had cranked the engine many times to test for sparks etc and use some carb cleaner on the MAF, throttle etc. In other words I tried to do as much housekeeping whilst waiting for the various spare parts!

I have had a bad week!!!!! heeeelp

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by tintin on Oct 6^th, 2006, 8:27am

sounds like the symptoms i got when my no.1 spark plug blew (see my posts re dodgy fuel, i initially thought i had got water in the tank when i filled up). check your spark plugs,

cheers

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:09pm

thanks for that information,

changed the plugs, same problem white vapour coming out of the exhaust, now wont start.

disconnected battery, final gesture new camshaft sensor

then perhaps death! pity because the estate is in pretty good shape.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by crop on Oct 6^th, 2006, 4:20pm

Sure its not the head gasket, but no water loss baffles me as white vapour from the exhaust is normally a sure sign of leaking head gasket.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 6^th, 2006, 7:09pm

Sure, understood, final check!

would anybody like a car?

too much effort no faith!

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 7^th, 2006, 11:38am

Another day,
perhaps further forward, changed the plugs noticed the plug nearest the engine has some oil on it, I shone a torch into the cylinder there is no oil on the piston, is it possible that oil can get in through the valves?

any advice please

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by tintin on Oct 7^th, 2006, 12:00pm

sorry to harp on, but does sound very similar to my problem. i had just put a £10 in the tank, pulled away and car started juddering. power loss, nursed it home, let it cool, next time i got in clouds of white smoke out the back. when it was up to speed the smoke disappeared and ran smooth. when i stopped at light, clouds of white smoke again, power loss(juddering). the white smoke smelled bad.

got it to my garage, who tested sparks, seemed ok, said "oil" and told me they would have to take the head off. they phones back later that day to say although no.1 spark looked fine, it was u/s, they stuck another one in and everything was back to normal.

not sure if this is the same problem, but hope this helps,

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 7^th, 2006, 12:30pm

Thanks Tin Tin,

I bought a brand new set of motorcraft plugs(cheaper than NGKs), put them in same problem! pulled the same plug has some oil contamination, changed the coil pack. Guess I can test the plugs outside the engine, is it just a question of resting the plug against the chassis and getting my wife to turn the engine to see the spark!

Having changed the cam/crank sensor the crank was damaged...changed the coilpack..changed the plugs I am totally bemused. Will persevere but thanks for your response..anything helps I can assure you!

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by tintin on Oct 7^th, 2006, 3:19pm

im wondering if a spark plug lead came loose (i had changed my plugs 500miles earlier, home job), and when they tried another plug, it made contact again. seems odd that our symptoms are the same (although mine is the 24v V6)

the garage pulled the leads one by one and noticed no.1 cylinder didnt change the engine note. first time they tested that plug (swapped for another one), symptoms persisted, so they assumed i was a cylinder down. then they actually put an old granada one in and smoke went away. How happy was i? ;D

does the smoke go away over 20mph? mine drove ok (just down on power) up to 70mph with only 5 cylinders, i guess it was just smoking at low speeds when it couldnt burn the fuel....

ps im no mechanic, just relaying my experience. might be time to give the car to a trustworthy garage....

pulling the leads as a starter point, and then holding the plug against the block to see if it sparks, thats how i would normally test (with a very rubber pair of pliers to hold the lead), not done it on this car though.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 7^th, 2006, 3:36pm

The HT leads from the coil packs to cyls 2&4 are very short, may be difficult to check for a spark. Just remember to pull the fuel pump fuse while the plugs are out ;)

New HT leads and coilpacks before you go any further (already fitted some?), if you do have a cracked head/gasket, you'll notice loss/contamination of oil/coolant before you go much further, I agree with Tintin about a bad plug but you'd notice a dead cylinder more on a 4cyl than a 6. If you can get it going it may be worth getting it on a quiet road and seing how it runs at temp/speed.

Hope this helps, Bruce.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by hellblue on Oct 7^th, 2006, 7:49pm

Have you done a compression test?? low comp. & the fuel wont burn!. You havnt done anything daft like putting diesel in it have you!!

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 8^th, 2006, 7:25am

Thank you for all your comments, I will do some further electrical assessments as I have a pair of coil packs(albeit used). There is a serious misfire as when the car does start it vibrates.

I noticed some slight contamination looks like oil could be unburnt fuel in the cylinders that come from the same coil pack but when I tested it a spark was present.

I will dig around a bit more, bit of a challenge my last experience was with my granada Ghia X, a special edition in Germany in 1989, did all sorts cylinders etc.

This one is an electronic nightmare, unfortunately my trusty garage is 20 miles away. The FMD is 2 miles :o away I have already spoken to them, of course they said bring it in, hinted a head job is about £700. It will go to Scorpio heaven before I pay that amount.

At least it is not raining!

Thanks again for all your comments back into the fray at least I am not buried underneath it for hours on end.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by bizzay1 on Oct 8^th, 2006, 7:36am

mine started jumping around trying to get out of the engine bay and it turned out to be a plug lead - tested it using a multi-meter, just check you have continuity from one end to the other, multi meter was £3.99 from maplins, no 1 lead was about £10 from fmd

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by tintin on Oct 8^th, 2006, 9:26am

good point Bizzay, i once had a mini (proper one), lead had gone, i tested it for continuity seemed ok, and gave a spark, but didnt work when actually plugged in. presume the angle it was bent at made the "break" open up. sounds like the 2.0l has some harsh bends in it, maybe with all the plugging and unplugging it has cracked a bit and is u/s when plugged in.

sometimes easier just to buy a spare lead (which reminds me....) so you can swap them in and out.

also, it may be producing a spark, but is it strong enough to ignite the fuel? might be a coil pack on its way out. i wouldnt have thought it would start on 2 cylinders though, 3 maybe..... did you try unplugging the leads one by one and try starting it? if you unplug one and it still runs as before that one is obviously the u/s one.

dont you just love electrical problems that make you chase round the car ;) keep going mate, i think you could save yourself £700 !Good luck

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 8^th, 2006, 12:24pm

New coilpacks and HT leads before you go any further, trust me ;)

Vibration sounds like you're missing a cylinder now, had one go on the Capri (2.0) once, (barely) ran like a tractor, at the other extreme the Jag was only firing on 9 out of 12 cyls through a faulty injector unit when I bought it, still so smooth that I didn't even realise until other faults arose...

From experience, the more cylinders you have, the less you notice a dead one :)

Hope this helps, Bruce.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 8^th, 2006, 1:59pm

Thanks guys,

will order up the plugs lead tomorrow this is working on the principle that 2 & 3 are firing OK.

wife will have the pleasure of dealing with FMD ;D

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by TiberiuS on Oct 8^th, 2006, 5:26pm

It may not solve the problem but it's all a process of elimination and it's better than just scrapping the car or letting the FMD drain your wallet :)

Keep at it, something tells me you're still looking at an electrical fault.

Bruce.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by GrahamT on Oct 9^th, 2006, 9:49am

Did you do a compression test? That will eliminate valves, head gasket and piston rings. Well worth doing.
Good luck,
Graham

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by pappa on Oct 11^th, 2006, 6:12am

Hi guys,

This could be very, very far fetched and I agree that the symptoms point at
the ignition, but could there be "water" in the petrol? Add some "alcohol"
in there (and take some yourself while your wife is dealing with FMD ;D )

Rare but it have happened to me (not with The Scorpio, but I've had a few
cars)

You ARE sure the ignition order has not been accidentally changed?

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 11^th, 2006, 2:27pm

thanks pappa,
matter of interest how can the ignition order change, interesting comment! is there a possibility that during my fuel cut-off loom change, crankshaft sensor change, camshaft sensor change that something odd has happened.

Just about to do the dreaded compression test, cheaper to buy the comp tester then new coil packs

thanks for all your comments and support :)

the grapevine

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 11^th, 2006, 3:03pm

Hi everybody,

Carried out compression all cylinders at 200 psi ;D or thereabout so on the next stage replacing the electronic components.

Still not out of the woods yet, buy the way Ford ordered the wrong part even though the wife took in the old plug lead ???

now on to the coil packs!

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)still
Post by grapevine on Oct 14^th, 2006, 11:35am

So the depression continues, thats for all your help.

changed all the items, still white smoke....new leads, coilpacks, relays etc,

weird could hear a ticking noise..freom the engine with the ignition off.

closer look reveals the No4 injector is clicking ??? this is really baffling, additionally, No 4 plug is fouled, changed it an no difference! no 1 plug is fine but slightly sooty!

the clicking obviosly stops when the multi-plug is disconnected, still ticked when I removed the fuel pump relay
can anyone help
regards
Doug

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by harry.m1byt on Oct 15^th, 2006, 10:12pm

on 10/07/06 at 15:19:02, tintin wrote:

pulling the leads as a starter point, and then holding the plug against the block to see if it sparks, thats how i would normally test (with a very rubber pair of pliers to hold the lead), not done it on this car though.

A useful bit of test gear for ignition related problems -
is a long ignition lead cut in the middle with the cut joined with some clear plastic tube. Stick a drawing pin in each end of the cut and leaving a small spark gap enables you to see the spark.

Testing spark plug operation only under atmospheric pressure is no guarantee that they will work under high temperature and the much higher pressure inside the cylinder - the best check is substitution with a new plug.

Title: Re: manic engine depression(and me!!)
Post by grapevine on Oct 25^th, 2006, 5:10am

Just thought I would give anyone an update.
Finally, shipped the car off to an autoelectric specialist, he very quickly diagnosed the number 4 cylinder fuel injector overfuelling as did the rest.

The fault now appears to be the ECU which most probably took a large spike during the shortining of the starter motor.

All cylinders had a fair amount of fuel in them, he(the engineer thought it was water) cranked the engine and I think got covered in fuel.

question is, what damge has been caused with the over-fuelling, probably the cats!

The guy has sent off the ECU for an estimate.

I have no idea of the cost, sounds nasty though! :-/

All because of the changing of a fuel cut off loom!

again, thanks for your comments.......hopefully scorp does not go to heaven!

regards

Doug