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        General >> Problems >> "Winter" noise getting worse.
        
(Message started by: cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:08pm)

Title: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:08pm

Hi, some of you might remember me posting about my engine getting noisy at start up as soon as the cold weather appeared. Well, it's getting worse and taking longer to go away. It used to go after about 1 min but now stays until the car is fully up to temp(Middle of temp gauge). The noise can best be described as metallic like a hammer hitting metal. It is in time with the revs and the engine shakes as well until warm. Once warm all
symptoms go away. I'm going to flush the engine and change the oil this saturday to see if this helps but i'm worried this might be something more, HOWEVER as everything is allright once up to temperature it can't be that awful can it?
Any suggestions appreciated.
Guy.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:14pm

Chain tensioners? Bad tappet?

I'm not too familiar with the 24v lump but if it goes in time with the revs then surely those are the places to look.

The Mondeo is developing a brief rattle on cold startup, it's well maintained and only had the timing belt done last year. But, that rattle is worrying me, similar to what you describe, quite loud but goes away in a few seconds...

Regards, Bruce.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by Highlander on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:49pm

I think i said the same the last time but it sounds like the chain tensioners not getting oil

blocked oilways or just the 24v chain rattle getting worse?

Either way it needs sorted ASAP you could probably buy two 24v's for the price a garage would take to repair the aftermath of a broken chain

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by Dave on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:52pm

Can you record it Guy? Most digital cameras will do reasonable video clips nowadays so one of those might suffice.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 7:54pm

Stuart, what can i do? Or is it a case of it going into the garage?
It is getting louder and taking longer to go away.
Guy.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 16^th, 2007, 8:10pm

guy , have you tried parking nose down hill ,
it just helps stop all the oil draining away if this is what it is.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 16^th, 2007, 8:26pm

Guy, a short term fix in my opinion would be to get the oil circulating before you start the engine, this may help it a bit. Now my Scorp is offroad, when I run it every week or two I floor the gas and give it a couple of bursts on the starter to get the oil going before I start it proper. I know you had a problem with it starting on full throttle though...

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 9:05pm

Hope this works but here is some video/sounds from car being started 3 hours after it being warm. The change in pitch/higher pitched noise is me moving closer to engine picture is black as street has little lighting.
Noise (http://s105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/guywatkins2002/?action=view&current=scorpionoise.flv)

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by Pegasus on Jan 16^th, 2007, 9:06pm

on 01/16/07 at 19:49:59, Highlander wrote:

[] If you use engine oil flush you'd notice a rattle for a while on start up anyway as I did this summer - its documented in the Troubleshooting guide. As the guide says, this will pass after a while - after about 10 start ups if I recall. I don't use the pedal to the metal procedure as mine fired up!! But, so far, I rarely get a rattle on cold start up (tempting fate now :-/ )

Out of interest, what grade of oil you using?

Paul

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 16^th, 2007, 9:14pm

guy, link not working my end.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 16^th, 2007, 9:25pm

Pegasus, engine won't fire if the TPS is working correct...a pain to remove it and adjust but handy if you need to pump the oil before you rev up...

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 9:25pm

on 01/16/07 at 21:14:34, bootiful-scorpios wrote:

guy, link not working my end.

I know i'm having huge probs with photobucket downloading the video, still trying.
Guy.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 10:09pm

Link to "Noise" now working(Hopefully). Baring in mind all you'd normally hear is the belts going round and a slight noise from engine hopefully everyone with a 24v will realise just how noisy this is. Sorry no video but it was dark. If its the oil draining from the tensioners then it's happening in a few hours rather than overnight. Most people say they get a rattle for a second or two but my noise stays on or off till the car is up to temp. I'm hoping this is just crap oil thats taking ages to warm up and thin out. This could be my fault as i bought the car and the previous owner said the oil had been changed that was 7,000 miles ago but if he was lying then god knows how long it's been in there. Can oil get so crappy it would take untill the car is hot for it to thin out and lubricate(Made worse now its winter?).The car is using NO oil and it doesn't look that bad on the dip stick.
Guy.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by Dave on Jan 16^th, 2007, 10:18pm

Guy,

link works fine for me now.

do you know exactly when the oil was last changed, and exactly what oil was put in?

If the answer was no then, IMHO, the first thing you should do is change the oil for some with a decent spec that is suitable for the Scorpio, and get a genuine Motorcraft filter from Ford that has an anti drainback valve.

Seems odd that it goes away when warm, might suggest a problem with the oil. Failing that I would be having a look at the timing chain tensioners.

That would be my first course of action anyway :)

EDIT See what you mean about the noise, not nice at all!

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 16^th, 2007, 10:22pm

No idea when oil was last changed or what's in it. Changing oil on Saturday and flushing system. In mean time not using it as it must be hurting engine as it is almost like theres no oil circulating till car warms up. Alas i'm going to get very wet biking to work :'(

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by tintin on Jan 16^th, 2007, 10:22pm

ok, me no expert, just from my experience. i had a rattle/knocking at start up, went away after about 5 mins. 2 garages wrote it off, saying it was the timing chain/big ends..... then it started losing power.

turned out to be a blocked cat, feeding back up the engine. rolling road at 5000 rpm and out came a big lump of cat, and power was restored. replaced the cats and everything is back to normal (well apart from the leaky rad ;D) i presume when warm, the casing expands and "unblocks". mine was on 98,000 miles when it started.

from your video it sounds generally noisy, whereas mine was distinct rattle/bangs, but worth a check anyway

hope this helps,

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by Highlander on Jan 16^th, 2007, 11:27pm

Hmmm might just be the recording but it doesnt sound like the metal to metal rattle you get with the chains...

possibly a cat like Sam says

water pump?? try the pulley for movement or remove the belt and start it up for a second or two to see if there is any difference

the oil will be circulating well before the engine gets to temp so I wonder if the thermostat opening and reducing the load on the pump stops the noise??

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by bootiful-scorpios on Jan 16^th, 2007, 11:35pm

guy, is the noise def coming from the the dreaded chain area ?

is there any loss in power when car is warmed up?

i dont know for 100% but me think you have a air leek in the egr or in the manifolds what expand and seal its self when hot, have a listen under car around drivers door area and then passenger side if it is from there you will know as it will sound even louder once ya head is under there, or take a small bit of hose and have a listen with that around the back of the engine and around the egr
deff get the new oil and filter put in.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by Highlander on Jan 17^th, 2007, 8:27am

These all sound better (cheaper) possibilites :)

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by martin_rowe on Jan 17^th, 2007, 8:56am

thats a real bad noise, probably missing something on the sound bite, try removing aux belts, where is it eminating from, oilpressure / flow needs to be checked, usual problem on 24v is blocked oil strainer, is there any sign of 'black sludge' in the cam cover, look / feel inside the oil filler cap. definatly causing more damage the longer it runs.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by DJWerkz on Jan 20^th, 2007, 8:49pm

Sounds bad indeed :( As well as everything else has anyone been at the cams in the past?

When my engine went bang (bad workmanship on the garages part) they had over torqued the cams down (among several other bad things). Upon starting the engine I had a very similar rattle only much quieter but after only driving 10 miles after collecting the car from the garage it got worse finally sounding like your car.

The cam's were basically working loose as the over torquing caused the bolts to start ripping out of the alloy head.

Another 24v engine bit the dust.

Bill Field has my car right now just getting the high emissions sorted.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by solarpanel on Jan 20^th, 2007, 9:18pm

sound like the chain guides may have broken,i bought a cossie last year with the engine sounding like that

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by big_neil on Jan 21^st, 2007, 3:37pm

could it be the chain tensioners? deffo change the oil and filter for the proper grade and make sure there,s no crud in the sump or the pick up pipe

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 21^st, 2007, 5:14pm

Right,just got home. Flushed engine and changed oil and filter and noise still there! (It would never be that easy :(). The noise is coming from the top end at the front,drivers side. It sounds "Chain" related but can someone confirm that's the right area of engine for that. There is no loss in power, did notice when doing oil change that it seems to take an age for oil to get to the top end of the engine,looking in filler cap it's dry until car has warmed up, Now I dont know if i've 2 problems
1, Oil not reaching top end until car has warmed up.
2, Chain guides gone.
The car has just done 120mile run driving in all conditions and seemd fine fuel consumption is ok so nothing fatal happening yet.
Need input as to how much getting the guides done will cost?
Does it normally take a while for oil to get to top end(Looking in oil filler cap)?
Really need some help on this as my engine knowledge is pants.
To summarise:
1, Car very noisy on start up.
2, Gets "Better" as it warms up, noise disappears(After 5 mins) on tick over but is there if you raise revs slightly.
3, Noise coming from top end at the front on the drivers side.

Guy.

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by big_neil on Jan 21^st, 2007, 8:19pm

do not like the sound of your problem saying theres no oil in the top end until it,s warm,it seems like an oil starvation problem coming from lack of oil changes (not the one youve just done) an oil flush would not solve it if the oilways were blocked up a bit from previous negligence. your flush may have just cleared some more crud into the sump clogging the pick up oil strainer. try an oil pressure test and take off the sump to check for crud in the sump and strainer. it sounds like your top end is suffering from oil starvation resulting in clatter, i agree with highlander it doesn,t sound like metal to metal clatter!just hope the damage hasn,t been done

Title: Re: "Winter" noise getting worse.
Post by cossieguy on Jan 21^st, 2007, 8:40pm

Neil, really appreciate your PM on this matter and the opinions of your friend(As said previously i'm not too hot on engines). I'm going to try and get some better sound recordings of it cold and hot. Will try and do it tomorrow night and put some light in there as well and point out where noise is coming from. Hopefully this might shed more light on the matter.
Guy.