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Title: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 20th, 2007, 12:00pm This is my last ditch saloon. I added to a recent thread but, still have the same problem. I do love this car but, the electrics......... ??? ::) OK here is the problem, if anyone can help before I start to cry uncontrollably I will be very grateful. Problem : Late one evening alarm starts going crazy. Opened car and all ignition lights on. End up leaving car unlocked all night. Read on the forum that alarm kicks in when voltage in battery drops....... Re-Charged battgery (triggle charge) and reconnceted. Lights still on. Car won't turn over Replaced main fuse box with a brand new one off my old (now deceased) car. Double checked pin connector. Then realised I am having a leak into passenger side of car. Thanks to the group (again) I cheked the air con hosey things and they were not blocked. While underneath glove compartment a silver box fell out, soaking wet. So, I changed it with the exact spare freom my other (Dead) car. Still the lights come on, a fan starts and I can't get the car to turn over. The battery is less than 2 years old but, I am going to get it checked anyway. The last thing I have tried to get some idea as to where the problem might be is to dissconnect the pin from the main fuse baox and the silver box thing under the glove compartment...still all the ignition lights come on. When I disconnect the red power lead from the battery to the aux fuse box..............all the lights are dead. Has anyone any idea...............Please......... As far as the water leak I think it is maybe due to water seeeping down where the battery sits and due to corrosion of where the battery rests is pouring down straight to a bunch of wires that go into the front of the car with a rubber seal, instead of going somewhere else Is that a possible cause? Many thanks. John despairing............. |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Danny-B- on Feb 20th, 2007, 12:11pm Hi mate, it sounds like this page might help you http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/drainholes.htm I'm a noob member so i might be reading you wrong, applogies if i am. |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by tintin on Feb 20th, 2007, 1:37pm Hi, i think the silver box under the glove box is the ecu, it should be pop rivetted in, if it fell out, it was probably replaced once before. was it this? http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00112.jpg if so, you are getting water coming in from under/behind the battery (see my other posts). may be water in the fuse box near the battery, and also there is the PATS system above the ecu, which may be soaking as well (black box). is the red alarm led on the dashboard flashing away at you? just a case of getting it all dry to begin with, i think, and see how you go. have you got a battery cover fitted? when you had the battery out, what was it like down there? hope this helps, |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Spannerdemon on Feb 20th, 2007, 2:42pm Unless you dry the ECU AND the multi plug out THOROUGHLY, including all the wiring, and replace the ECU (if you need to), with EXACTLY the same type (see the stickers on it), then this could well be your problem. A hairdryer is good for doing this. If the pins are wet, or the wiring wet, then it will short out all over the place. You also need to disconnect your battery AFTER you have re-fitted it. The car will run rough for a few minutes, but take it for a 5 mile drive, and it will then re-learn the settings from your car and settle down again. The ECU sits in a drop down tray, and the plug comes out with a 10mm socket or spanner. We had this problem last year, and replaced the ECU with one that I incorrectly thought was identical. It wasn't. Needless to say we still had nightmare problems just like you mention. Fortunately another member lives near me, in Exeter and was breaking a 12v and sold me his old one. No problems since. There are usually quite a lot of these on Ebay, but if not, you can have it rebuilt. It may also be that another member might have one for sale. :) See HERE (http://www.the-ecu-doctor.co.uk/) You will see, after reading this VERY interesting site, that putting another ECU into a car isn't a good idea, unless, of course, it's a brand new one. I have personal experience of a friend using this guy to repair an ECU off an MR2 and his work is 100%, and he has a brilliant reputation. Hope this helps you to get things sorted out. Basically you really need to dry the electrics out VERY THOROUGHLY. A wipe over simply won't do it. The water gets in through a large grommet behind the battery by the way, but I think someone has already identified that for you. I sealed mine in with loads of underseal. No more leaks. ;) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Simmo on Feb 20th, 2007, 3:05pm The auxillary (battery side) fuse box is made up of about 6 layers. The copper segments sit in shallow tracks in the wafers so you need to make sure that ALL the water is out or it will track all over the place. http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0WgCND8sZvXlw*I4R6p*w!UmRpQbj*ZMyHFbUXIGbxlU3Yzs6XFzFd8NhywbgsqBV6FgiVDMLLtfYQvJ5Kh*dO!F6rRZNeTUdc0GSi5tfd4DHwIA4vFYlOnmAe9RZx2YvjVOqIjIyHMw/2006_1130Fusebox0004.JPG?dc=4675609064330932524 This shows two layers exposed which will give you an idea. |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 8:44am The saga continues......... Firstly thank you to everyone for all the advice. I have changed the ECU from an exact same model car and they share the same part number so, hopefully they should be compatable. I have also changed the aux fuse box from the same "dead" spare car, that was working perfectly. Guess what.............. Exactly the same problem is persisting. :'( >:( Next job will be.............hairdryer under the glove comaprtment for a while and underseal in the rubber seal. Thanks again......... Watch this space. If you see a P reg floating down the Thames on the 6.00 news...........you will know its mine.... ;D |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Highlander on Feb 21st, 2007, 9:28am If you have changed the ECU you will need the ignition key from the same car or the PATS will disable starting eg you have put car (A) ECU into car (B) Try starting it as usual while holding car (A) keys near the ignition barrel Sounds identical to Tintins problem |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 10:59am Aggghhh it is getting even more complicated now. ??? I will try that with the old key but, I am still getting the problem with all the ignition lights on so, I am thinking that it may not have been the ECU after all. So, shall I just put the old ECU back in ? Everything I have tried has still left me with the same problem...ignition lights on all the time !!!. Thanks everyone for your help with this John |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by tintin on Feb 21st, 2007, 10:59am good call stuart, didnt think about the key.....sounds like the car is "immobilised", either missing the key that goes with the ecu (i put the key on the keyring and it works fine), or the PATS is wet..... john, its worth removing the glove box (two clips at the side lever off, then it drops down and pulls out), then you can get to everything much easier |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Simmo on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:05am If the battery has been off are you sure that All the leads are back on. There is a small black lead which can,and does, fall down the the side of the battery and get missed when re-connecting. Sounds simple but you wouldn't be the first...or I suspect the last...to miss it. ;) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Spannerdemon on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:06am When I changed my ECU (bought from Ady in Exeter), I didn't need the key from the one he was breaking. Just plugged it in, and all was fine again. Once the battery had been disconnected for 2 mins, and re-connected, no problems. Basically it was just the same ECU (as bought from a dealer). I actually wonder if the PATS module is so wet that it's disabling the car. :) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:39am Help.what is the PATS module ??? Thanks yet again. John |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:41am yep...have attached the small black lead...........been caught out that way before.... ::) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by tintin on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:42am Hi, Its the Passive Anti Theft System, immobilises the car. If you take off the glove box, you will see the silver ECU sitting in its cradle. Above that is a black box that has clips on the side. Squeeze them, and the unit will pull forward, three connectors at the back. Not sure if you need the original key, will try it on mine today without the "new" key and see if it still starts. Hope this helps, |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by scorpio_man on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:49am hi there have you checked the wiring to the front lighter? this can give all sorts of issues. hth |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:50am Will give that a try. Would that cause all the ignition lights to stay on too or, have I got an additional water problem.... Any ideas........ John |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by scorpio_man on Feb 21st, 2007, 11:56am hi there by the sounds off it, you could have water in both fuseboxes and down into the cabin (ecu). i'd dry everything out first. check all wiring, then think about starting it. there's no point, imo, trying to get it to go with all this dampness about. hth |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 12:07pm I have read about the wiring to the front lighter. Now the daft question....any idea how I can do that..... I am a bit of an amatuer mechanic !!!! and I own a scorpio...go figure (but, I just love the car...when its not raining) Thanks everyone, John |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 21st, 2007, 12:08pm I am going out to it in about half an hour armed with the wifes hairdryer....... |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by tintin on Feb 21st, 2007, 12:34pm "I am a bit of an amatuer mechanic !!!! " me too ;D but actually it was really easy to pull it all apart under the glovebox, and dry out/replace the ecu and PATS system. here is a pic of the ecu with the glovebox out. the PATS sat above it (its removed) with the wires that are hanging attached. http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00109.jpg it does sound exactly like the problem i had (and am currently fixing). once its starting again, you need to track where that water is getting through to the glovebox, otherwise problem will persist...... heres my battery tray :( http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00114.jpg have faith and you will surprise yourself :D |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 22nd, 2007, 9:29am [quote author=tintin link=board=Problems;num=1171972805;start=15#19 date=02/21/07 at 12:34:58 ...... heres my battery tray :( http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00114.jpg It looks just like mine !!! ;D Thanks for all the advice....trying again this morning. More hairdryer and underseal for the seal under the battery. One little thing I have noticed on my "dead" spare car is that where the smaller black lead comes through to the battery there is metal all around it but, on my "wet" car it has all corroded and the bigger hole is directing water almost straight onto the rubber seal. John |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by tintin on Feb 22nd, 2007, 10:17am not good, eh? i am going back to the car this afternoon, we have drilled out another battery tray from a scrapper : http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00115.jpg have taken my rotten tray out, gonna clean back the base, anti-rust paint it, seal the big holes : http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00116.jpg put down some cover : http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00117.jpg and bolt down the new tray (pop triv, anyone name the silver piece?) will let you know how it works out ;D (ps wasnt going to post these pics as im sure someone will tell me how wrong this bodge is, but the alternative is strip out the dash and lots of cutting/welding, which is just not a viable option, and i need the car.....) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Spannerdemon on Feb 22nd, 2007, 11:28am I really wonder about the logic of having water cascading down the screen straight onto fuse boxes and the battery. ::) No offence to the guy, but I think whoever did this particular bit of the Scorpio design wants to get out of the office more, and actually look at how his designs work in the real world!! ;) It would have been relatively simple to have a bottom of screen drain strip to divert at least 90% of the rain away.....no? In fact I might look at this as a project. Bond a bit of plastic U channel to the bottom of my screen with a pipe at each end down to the bottom of the car to drain it straight onto the road. Food for thought!! Anyway, we're all stuck with it. The advice you need is all here, and I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of it. Good luck. ;) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Feb 26th, 2007, 10:08am Hi all, Thought I would give an update : The water persisted in flowing into the passenger area. So, not being in anyway mechanical I didn't feel confident drilling off the battery frame thing so, I squirted expander foam between it and the metal underneath.........massive bodge !!!!. I waited till it dried...................water still coming in. Next....biggest bodge of all. I managed to get the bit of the glovebox that comes out via the clips. I then got the hacksaw out and cut a space at the back of the glovebox and got access to the black box, unbolted the frame (that had masses of water on it) and managed to FINALLY" track where the water was coming in. Right at the top there was a small rusted hole. So, out came the underseal and masses amounts later, I am just waiting for it to dry and see if the car is now watertight.............. However, in the meantime I reconnected the battery and all looked well........the car started perfectly and the ignition lights only came on after I switched on the ignition. BUT, when I turned the engine off and took out the keys............. Guess what...those blasted ignition lights came on again !!! I have even tried stripping back the small black negative lead that bolts to the battery in the hope in might not have been connecting probably. I will be trying a spare black box thing tomorrow. After that........I give up !!!!!! Well at least the car and I are very intimate electrical friends !!!! John |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by sector-9 on Mar 3rd, 2007, 11:06pm The ignition lights should not come on at all unless the key is at pos. II - the fact they are suggests that you've got damaged wiring somewhere. My diesel used to get some of the dash lights (can't remeber which) come on faintly sometimes with the ignition off and the handbrake on! Strangely, disconnecting the big green relay for the cooling fans cured it. The cause, as I found out later by accident, was damaged wiring loom behind the front bumper!!! So, start pulling fuses out one at a time in the batt. fusebox until the ignition lights go out and then trace the wiring for that circuit and you should find the cause. Darren |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Mar 9th, 2007, 11:53am The saga continues....... I have manmaged to completely fix the leak...the power of sealant inside the car up where you can never get to !!!! The bits and pieces seemed to have dried out and the ignition lights do not stay on now and the car runs..... BUT......things can never run smoothly. Now there are no headlights (but, back lights work) and no windscreen wipers or, washer. I think it might be that wonderful multi pin by the main fusebox that is not not siiting properly. Any idea how I check it is locked in correctly. Thanks to everyone.....again.... :) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by tintin on Mar 9th, 2007, 12:31pm when your headlights work? ;D good news on the sealant, well done, mine is almost dry, but still letting small amounts in, think i need to seal it from underneath, like you..... |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by Simmo on Mar 9th, 2007, 2:11pm John, There are two 'lugs' on the box and two 'pins' on the connector. You MUST locate the pins in the lugs, and make sure they stay there, BEFORE you snap the unit together. It will appear to go down ok but can be one pin out. It has been said,"If it goes on first time you 'aint got it right"!!. ;) |
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Title: Re: Water and the electrics........ Post by John_Sawyer on Mar 13th, 2007, 8:50am Thank you everyone for all your help. This latest little problem was indeed the multi pin but, it wasn't the way I was trying to fit it in but, there is a nylon cable tie that I must have moved round that stopped the pin fitting properly. Only took me 5 hours and 10 cups of coffee to work it out. The car is now back on the road. I want to thank everyone for their help in getting all these problems sorted. Now I am driving it again, I know why I love it so much. Thanks again |
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