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        General >> Problems >> Electrical Gremlins
        
(Message started by: tintin on Mar 11^th, 2007, 3:53pm)

Title: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Mar 11^th, 2007, 3:53pm

ok, car is now running beautifully, but is showing a few minor issues driving to work and back today :

alarm has been going off on a whim, so its not armed at the moment....

sometimes the electric windows dont work, the panel on the door does not light up, then suddenly it lights up and the windows work

the sunroof is not opening anymore, although i think the motor is trying to

when i got back to the car, the interior hazards were ticking away when i opened the door, but outside lights werent flashing. key in, one turn, it stopped. it also flashed once on the way home. what makes the hazards flash? low battery?

nothing life-threatening, but would be good to get sorted. sound like fuse box?

stuart, want your first job? mates rates? ;D

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Kjetil S on Mar 11^th, 2007, 10:48pm

Could very well be the fuse box.

Re the alarm, check the bonnet switch. They are prone to failure.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Dave on Mar 13^th, 2007, 8:12am

When you say the alarm is not armed, have you just disconnected the siren? Then maybe the ticking was the alarm going off but without sound ???

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Rod on Mar 13^th, 2007, 8:34am

on 03/11/07 at 22:48:39, Kjetil S wrote:

Re the alarm, check the bonnet switch. They are prone to failure.

Hi Kjetil

I have a not dissimilar problem with my P plate 2.9 12v Scorpio which Bernie is kindly looking into.

In the meantime, do I do that check as in open bonnet, depress plunger with finger, double lock on key fob, release finger, make note to wear ear defenders next time - equals bonnet switch OK? :-[

Or is there another check? The plunger goes down and back up freely. Currently got the bonnet switch disconnected to stop the alarm going off, which it is prone to do some hours after parking the car. The car still double locks and the PATS light blinks normally.

Rod

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Simmo on Mar 13^th, 2007, 9:57am

Rod, That establishes that the bonnet switch seems to be ok !. Are you sure it was the hazards going ? It sounds as though you have a locking problem and that will send the system into a 'frenzy' with all sorts of noises as the locks try to sort themselves out. A good first stage is to ensure that each closure mechanism is dosed with WD40 particularly if some of the doors get little use and the fob is used instead of the key. Obviously all the doors,boot etc need to be registering as secure for the alarm to set up properly.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Rod on Mar 13^th, 2007, 10:20am

Thanks Simmo

My low level of expertise runs to jiggling the switches and squirting them with WD40. Not sure where the boot switch is yet, but I will have a look.

My description of fiddling with the bonnet switch was a rhetorical question. I haven't done that yet - so I don't know if the alarm goes off when I do. Better try that now.

Anyhow, I'm on the case. Thanks. :)

And sorry Tintin for butting into your thread. I hope that your problems are soon resolved - and your neighbours understand when you 'flash' on the way home ;)

Rod

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Mar 13^th, 2007, 11:34am

lol, no probs,

im just not locking the car at the moment, seems my area is grotty enough for them not to p**s on their own doorstep ;D

not sure why the hazards went off, it didnt do it on the way in this morning, although the windows only worked on the latter part of the journey. interestingly the mirrors still worked, so i guess its not the control panel as a whole thats the problem, but something more specific. need to get at the bonnet/boot switches and give it a good thrashing to see if that is the issue with the alarm....

seems to do it more when its wet outside, so still think this may be damp-related

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Kjetil S on Mar 13^th, 2007, 12:33pm

If the problem goes away after disconnecting the bonnet switch, then the switch is probably the problem. If the problem is still there, then the switch is probably ok.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Dave on Mar 13^th, 2007, 3:29pm

on 03/13/07 at 11:34:32, tintin wrote:

lol, no probs,

im just not locking the car at the moment, seems my area is grotty enough for them not to p**s on their own doorstep ;D

When I want to lock the car but not arm the alarm, I do the following:

-Shut drivers door having removed self from car :D
-Open rear drivers side door
-Reach round to drivers interior door handle, push to lock car (all doors lock, including open door)
-Shut rear door - car is now locked

Will open on the remote/key as normal.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Mar 13^th, 2007, 3:56pm

lol, doesnt that lock yourself in the car ;D ;D

sounds good, will give it a go tonight, i just assumed i had to arm it to lock it.... many thanks

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Dave on Mar 13^th, 2007, 6:11pm

Sorry should have read:

-Open rear drivers side door BUT DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES INSTALL SELF IN VEHICLE

PS Objects in the mirror may be closer than they appear.

;D

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Mar 19^th, 2007, 6:54pm

ok, cure to hazards flashing = turn on the indicators, then off again.....

i can live with that ;D especially as the windows have started working again !! might go crazy and arm the alarm this weekend :D

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Mar 21^st, 2007, 10:15am

ok, im going to have to rename my car Christine !

this morning, windows have stopped working again, the hazards were going off more than normal, and now a new one.... the alarm horn (god its loud when you are inside the car) sounded twice (single parp on two separate occassions). hasnt rained since the last drive. still drives well, just a bit embarassing (although with the hazards going, no-one tail-gates me ;D)

so my thoughts are either

1) the PATS module is damp and is getting confused
2) the battery is getting run low, and that is triggering the alarm somehow (even though its not set??). battery light on the dash has always glowed faintly since i got the car a year ago, but it doesnt drain.
3) aux fuse box is damp

any ideas?

i have a spare PATS module, so will be swapping that over to try it. might just get a new battery as well this weekend, as mine is the low-crank variety.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by sector-9 on Mar 23^rd, 2007, 10:01pm

With the engine stopped, disconnect the alternator and see if the battery light goes out as the rectifiers are known to break down and cause a current leakage (causing the same symptom) - may also explain the alarm going off, but won't affect the windows.

However, the alarm and windows are all controlled from the central control module mounted above the main engine ECU, below the cable entry grommet for the aux. fusebox and this area can get rather wet if the seal is broken!

Darren

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Mar 24^th, 2007, 7:44am

ahhh now that sounds more likely, i know i am damp in that area ;)

i knew the ecu was down there (its now dry and out the way) and the PATS was there (i am going to pull it out and give it a dry today), guess i need to look for the central control module too (which i thought was in the centre armrest thing :-[)

getting close to the Basil method of branch beating soon ;D

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by sector-9 on Mar 24^th, 2007, 11:47am

It's possible the CCM and PATS are one and the same thing as I've read people describing the PATS unit as being directly above the ECU and held in place by a clip either side - which is exactly the description of the CCM!

Unfortunately my car doesn't have PATS so I can't double check if this is the case...

Darren

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 7^th, 2007, 12:25pm

ok, i think i have got to the bottom of these issues :

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l230/tintin74/DSC00124.jpg

the CCM has had water in it, by the looks of it. I had a spare from the scrapper, but when i plug it in , the alarm goes off and wont disarm. The codes on them are slightly different.... the watery one is a 96GP, but the one from the scrapper is a 96GG. Incompatible?

the car actually still drives fine, just these strange electrical problems, should i attempt to clean up the PCB board, or could i make it worse? is there a way to make the 96GG unit work? dont want to be stranded down in Birmingham ;D

as always, all ideas welcome ;)

PS im with the scrapper cossie at the moment, if anyone needs bits pulled off and sent, let me know.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 7^th, 2007, 12:29pm

hi sam

i'd try cleaning it with a rubber and then some switch cleaner and cotton buds.

leave it to dry and see how it goes.

btw, are you saying the car drives fine with the ccm out of it?

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 7^th, 2007, 1:56pm

lol, no not out of it,

given the damage inside i would not have expected that it would have started at all, but it drives fine, just parps its horn and flashes its hazards every now and again (oh, and the windows only work when it is doing those things)

im afraid if i clean it, i will disturb something and it will stop working.... its a long walk back north ;D

i am not sure why the car is not happy with the other CCM, i thought they would all work in any car, but i guess i am wrong. or do you have to battery reset to get them to work, or something?

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 7^th, 2007, 3:01pm

hi sam

are you using the 'other' key? the one from the scrap car?

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 7^th, 2007, 4:51pm

the other key (the one for that CCM) is sat next to the CCM, but im not turning the ignition or arming the alarm, the alarm just goes off as soon as i plug in the scrapper CCM. ???

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 7^th, 2007, 4:56pm

hi sam

could it be that the alarm is set (never switched off) and it's making the sound because it think it's getting broken in to? try plugging in and use the key in the door (unlock).

hth

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 7^th, 2007, 5:57pm

;D ;D

so obvious when you think it through huh? plugged it in, turned the key, all works, and seems all the gremlins gone too, just taken it for a test spin.

when i lock it, the alarm still goes off after about 5 secs, but i i can play with that one (if it starts and runs, then it must know the proper key is there, no?) probably just the bonnet switch....

so thats that fixed ;D and the alloys on, the cd changer fixed, the drivers pocket screwed back on. just the bumper to change and then i'll get the bits off the scrapper for you ;)

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 7^th, 2007, 6:53pm

just managed to programme my remote, works fine. ;D Andy, the spare one i have is not programming, so will bring it up for anyway, but you might want to get a battery for it.

seems the alarm is just not arming now, it locks fine by key or remote, but PATS is not flashing. good news, i guess, dont want the alarm anyway, darn thing just keeps going off ;D

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by harry.m1byt on Apr 7^th, 2007, 11:02pm

on 03/24/07 at 11:47:23, sector-9 wrote:

No, they are separate units. Or at least -
I swapped my CCM for another and my keys continued to work as normal with the car. As you probably know, the keys are tied up to the PATS unit and the PATS unit I believe is also tied into the ECU in as much as it much provide it with the correct code or no start.

The CCM is the horizontal box facing you just behind the glove box - the easy one to get out. The PATS (I think) is tucked down below somewhere, near the ECU. Someone ought to put together a list of these modules, where they are, how they can be identified and the functions they carry out.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 8^th, 2007, 10:37am

Harry, you are quite right, i have just tried the car without the red key nearby, and it starts and runs fine, so the CCM is not the module that looks for the transponder. Neither is the ECU. Both have been changed and no key change required.

I wonder where the PATS module is hiding ??? If it is also by the ECU and CCM, it too may be soaking and causing the alarm to do funny things....

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Simmo on Apr 8^th, 2007, 2:46pm

Tintin, Go to the front page,scroll down to the 'search' box at the bottom and enter PATS. A variety of info is available BUT for obvious reasons some is witheld. You may find enough to assist you however.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Paul B on Apr 8^th, 2007, 3:18pm

on 04/08/07 at 10:37:33, tintin wrote:

I wonder where the PATS module is hiding ??? If it is also by the ECU and CCM, it too may be soaking and causing the alarm to do funny things....

Have a look at this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/PCBoulton/IgnitionBarrel.jpg

This is my ignition barrel after the attempted theft back in September.

Surrounding the barrel is a circular plastic piece which has a small module attached. You can see a green plug going into it.

During the break-in, this was broken on mine and left hanging by the wires.

Now, when I put the key in, it wouldn't start. But if this module was held against the barrel it would. The circular bit is there to hold it against the barrel.

Not sure if this is the PATS module, but its obviously something to do with it.

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 8^th, 2007, 5:20pm

hi there

that's the transponder reciever (red bit in the key).

hth

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Paul B on Apr 8^th, 2007, 8:57pm

OK then. Wrong bit.

Sorry :(

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 8^th, 2007, 11:50pm

colonel mustard in the kitchen with the rope? ;D

ach well, car is running fine, no key changes needed, and remote reprogrammed. if it goes into programme mode for the remote, can i also programme other keys too? just nervous about only having one key....

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by Simmo on Apr 9^th, 2007, 7:46am

The coding procedure is HERE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook040.gif).

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by tintin on Apr 9^th, 2007, 12:48pm

yep, but i dont have a red key :(

i didnt think all cars came with red keys (early ones like mine?), so what do they do?

if i can find the unit that recognises the red key, i can swap it with the one on mine, and have a red key !!

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by scorpio_man on Apr 9^th, 2007, 1:06pm

hi sam

re the red key. that's all it is, a red key. ford just used a red one so you'd know which one was the 'master'. it is different on the newer pats system, though.

a local/mobile locksmith can reprogram the system and cut key to match cheaper than ford.

hth

Title: Re: Electrical Gremlins
Post by sector-9 on Apr 9^th, 2007, 5:49pm

Only vehicles with PATS had 'red' keys - early vehicles such as my diesel only have standard black ones and no immobiliser function. FWIW I think Ford starting equipping post 95 vehicles with PATS.

Darren