Ford Scorpio Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Ford Scorpio Forum
        (https://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl)
      

        General >> Problems >> Slow warm up ?
        
(Message started by: Scorpio_Mike on Dec 20^th, 2007, 3:17pm)

Title: Slow warm up ?
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 20^th, 2007, 3:17pm

Couple of issues have come up since the cold snap started :
Water temp guage stays down at the bottom unless in heavy traffic when it moves up to the middle where it should be but quickly goes back down when on the open road. Car seems slow to warm up although when you have been going about 20 miles or so air from the dash outlets is pretty warm.
A/C seems a bit slow to get warm air out - does it need topping up ?

Heated front screen does not seem to work - checked both fuses and found them OK - where to look next ?

TIA

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Snoopy on Dec 20^th, 2007, 3:53pm

1. Slow Warm up... Suggest you change the thermostat, sounds like its OPEN all the time

2. Heated front screen .. Check the relay 18 in the aux (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook134.gif) fuse box is working and aslo check the earth connections either side of the screen

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Kjetil S on Dec 20^th, 2007, 3:56pm

Cold warm up is probably the thermostat. Try replacing it (doesn't cost much and is quite easy). If I'm not mistaken, the thermostat could cause the A/C to warm up slowly as well.

Don't know about the heated front screen.

Edit: Snoopy beat me to it ;D

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 20^th, 2007, 8:19pm

Is there another relay in the car I can swap with R18 to test without getting a new one ?

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Tompion on Dec 20^th, 2007, 9:15pm

My 2.3 is very slow to warm up if I go straight onto the main road, warms up quicker with aircon off which I assume is because the fan isn't running.
It's not the stat in my case but I suspect with the partly blocked matrix water gets forced past the stat (when I cleared the matrix last year the engine warmed up quicker).
If I start the journey on slow local roads it warms up fairly quickly.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by harry.m1byt on Dec 20^th, 2007, 10:35pm

An easy method to test the stat is....

Starting with the engine cold, let it tickover whilst constantly keeping a hand on the top hose. If the top hose gradually warms up, then the stat is stuck open. What should happen is the hose should quite suddenly become warm over a matter of a few seconds. Another way to test it in cold damp conditions is to spray the rad with cold water and watch for the mist start to rise as the hot water suddenly gets into the radiator as the sat opens. You might see this mist rise up anyway in cold damp weather, if moisture has managed to condens on the rad.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Tompion on Dec 20^th, 2007, 10:57pm

I agree with Harry, that's how mine worked with a new stat and a clear matrix (checked with OBD and didn't pass water till up to temp) but as the matrix has started to block it now seeps by the stat & the hose to the rad warms up.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Snoopy on Dec 21^st, 2007, 8:00am

Re the relay ... try one the one off the heated REAR screen as a stop gap but I think it has a different power rating ...
RELAY 4 (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook132.gif)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 21^st, 2007, 5:51pm

as long as the temp gauge is within the normal operating range and isnt flickering jumping about etc then its doing exactly what it should do i.e. sat in traffic temp goes up (but not into the red), open road cold weather= cold air passing through rad and around engine the temp will and should lower, its normal.
i believe the air con will not blow out hot air until the engine has reached a certain temp.
as for the heated front screen i dont have one, but i think many members have problems normally with one side working only...

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Kjetil S on Dec 21^st, 2007, 10:22pm

If the thermostat is working properly, then it won't read any differently if it's sat in traffic or running on the open road. If it does, then it's 99% certain that it's broken and jammed open. Mine has done it on two occasions, and it was a jammed thermostat both times.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by harry.m1byt on Dec 21^st, 2007, 10:31pm

on 12/21/07 at 22:22:24, Kjetil S wrote:

[]

Any variation has to be due to either a problem with the guage telling lies, or a problem with the performance of the stat.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 10:41am

disagree totally, its basic physics, the stat will only keep an engine within a 'range'...

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 10:50am

Yes it does Taliban but that range should be hardly noticable on the Scorpio

My Scorps hardly move off the same mark, (slightly above the halfway line), once they are warmed up.

The thermostat and the cooling fans keep the temperature within a very narrow range whether sitting in traffic or driving hard. (I can leave mine ticking over for hours on a hot day and it will never climb above half way)

If the gauge is moving about something is definitely wrong.
The poor heating also suggests the stat as the problem, it might actually be missing altogether ;)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 11:08am

it doesnt matter what the engine is (unless its air cooled of course) or whether its a scorpio, engine temp will vary with given conditions but the stat should keep it within an 'operating range'. we've been through this one before very thoroughly, i cant remember who it was but someone put up a lenghty thread giving details of how the stat works for Harry.....

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 11:36am

Yep, we know how it works and yes it does have an operating range agreed BUT the operating range shown on the gauge should not move much at all from the centre if the system is 100%

There should only be a very slight variation which the thermostat and the fans will regulate

If the gauge is at the bottom when the car has reached or should have reached normal operating temperature then there must be a problem, it is NOT normal on the Scorpio.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by tintin on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 5:22pm

yep, my cossie warms up steadily to a smidge over half way, then stays rock steady through motorway and town, never moves.

or at least, it does now the rad and cats are fixed and it isnt overheating ;)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Kjetil S on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 6:29pm

Same with my 16v. I can leave it idle for hours (not that I usually do) or I can take it out on a run in -15C, and it sits still just above half.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 8:04pm

The defence rests ;)

Dodgy/missing thermostat Mike

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 22^nd, 2007, 9:41pm

That's what I was thinking, better be careful working on that inlet manifold or I'll be getting the glue out...

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by harry.m1byt on Dec 23^rd, 2007, 10:36am

on 12/22/07 at 10:41:34, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:

disagree totally, its basic physics, the stat will only keep an engine within a 'range'...

Why in a range?

The thermostat can vary its opening almost instantly to suit and adjust the temperature of its incoming water. It doesn't have hysterisis.

Once upto temperature and settled, the only time the temperature should vary is if the cooling system is over loaded - as in too much heat being generated for the system to be able to get rid of. Even on the hottest days in the UK, I have never had the cooling fans be triggered to provide that extra cooling, nor have I seen the guage rise or move from its mid position by even the slightest amount. Except for the occasion when I deliberately covered the rad on my Granada after a long hot summer run and left it ticking over for half an hour with no airflow. It then moved north of normal on the guage and managed to trigger one of the two fans to run.

Normal operation on a fully functional system is to slowly rise to the normal position on the guage and stay there rock steady. If it does otherwise it would indicate some problem in the cooling system or the stat.

Assuming there is no fault in the cooling system, it might indicate the stat itself is sticking a little - or perhaps an airlock in the system.

I noticed one exception to this on my last Granada, where from cold the guage would rise up to normal, then as the stat opened I would see it fall back slightly, then continues its progress to normal before staying put there.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 23^rd, 2007, 5:14pm

'The thermostat can vary its opening almost instantly to suit and adjust the temperature of its incoming water. It doesn't have hysterisis.'

because it cant Harry.

i cant be bothered to carry on with this topic as its already been covered in greater detail before, and if possible it'd be worth going back over an old reply (cant remember who wrote it) by someone who explained all in great detail for you far better than i could. as for the original poster of this thread, he might well have a problem as there are other elements involved. as for my car, well as long as it doesnt overheat or start running cold and the temp stays within the normal range the same as every motorbike and car engine that i've ever owned (when i've taken any real notice of car temp gauges) there's an old saying 'dont mend something that isnt broken'....... 8)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Tompion on Dec 23^rd, 2007, 7:00pm

Going back to the original post ;D

on 12/20/07 at 15:17:46, Scorpio_Mike wrote:

A/C seems a bit slow to get warm air out - does it need topping up ?

With regard the heating it doesn’t matter if the aircon is in need of topping up.

With my 2.3 the cc starts of at a low fan speed and after approx 1 mile the fan increases in speed.
If yours does this but the air gets cold then you probably have a blocked matrix or an airlock, in which case the best bet is to set the fan speed to manual and turn it up as far as you can and still maintain some warmth. I believe the cc increases the fan speed when the coolant reaches a preset temperature – trouble is it doesn’t know that the matrix isn’t working as it should so you end up with an icy blast.

If on the other hand it takes a long time before the fan increases speed then it is likely to be the stat.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Kjetil S on Dec 23^rd, 2007, 10:45pm

on 12/23/07 at 17:14:50, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:

I don't want to offend you, so I hope you don't take it as so, BUT why is it that all the other scorpios will stay dead in the middle no matter what we do to them? I can take mine out and do 100km/h in -15C (which adds up to some pretty extreme cooling of the engine), and it stays right in the center. I can leave it idling for a good while, and it still stays right in the center. No matter what I do, it will just stay in the center

(I'm now talking about after getting the engine up to temp. It will ofcourse be in the blue for the first half mile or so depending on outside temperature)

I can tell you this for a fact and I'm 110% certain: If the gauge moves at all after getting up to temp, then THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG..

Btw, what you say regarding the range is probably correct, but you probably forget that the scorpio gauge is digital and isn't necessarily linear. The 'dead center' setting probably covers a small range in temperature. I would guess that the temperature would have to change a whole lot for the gauge to move.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by harry.m1byt on Dec 23^rd, 2007, 11:27pm

on 12/23/07 at 17:14:50, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:

'The thermostat can vary its opening almost instantly to suit and adjust the temperature of its incoming water. It doesn't have hysterisis.'

because it cant Harry.

Sorry, but it can and it does. A stat is able to fully open, fully close, or adjust itself to a point in between to perfectly control the water temperature at what ever temperature the stat is designed to operate. There it is sat in the water and able to almost instantly respond to any changes in the load upon the engine, which mean more or less cooling capacity is needed. The gauges sensor is mounted quite close to the stat.

Only if there is insufficient cooling capacity from the radiator or a problem with the flow, or the stat itself - will the guage show any change in its reading once the engine is up to its design temperature.

It is rather like your central heating at home, except that the temperature can be even more closely controlled because it is a closed loop. You would soon be complaining if your homes temperature wondered all over the place.

In responce to Kjetil S's conmment about it being digital...

My understanding is that the sensor is analogue. The output of that is then fed into the speedo electronics which would seem to convert it to a digital value. From there is would seem to be converted back again to an analogue voltage output which will be in discrete steps. Part of the processing seems to include some small amount of damping for the gauges movement. I would not expect those discrete steps to be so large as to be at all noticeable on the gauge display.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 24^th, 2007, 6:07pm

Kjetil of course no offence is taken....

thats the point, all other scorpio's dont do it, thats how this debate arose some time ago.
something in your reply i noticed; im not going on the digital gauge but the needle gauge with the big range for normal operating temp.

when this debate came up last time i asked a mate about it, he has over 20 years experience as a class 1 mechanic who has worked on all manner of agricultural engines, buses, cars, and just about every make of motorbike on the planet, his reply was along the lines of 'of course the engine temp will vary with conditions, its an engine, its what they do, its normal, unless scorpios have some kind of special engine thats different to just about every other engine thats been made that is able to stay at a constant temp no matter what...... for what reason? as long as the engine heats up, doesnt overheat, and stays within the set tolerance then theres no problem'.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 24^th, 2007, 8:00pm

on 12/24/07 at 18:07:23, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:

as long as the engine heats up, doesnt overheat, and stays within the set tolerance then theres no problem'.

But if they drop below halfway then they are out of the set tolerance so there IS a problem.

These cars should not run between the upper and lower limits as you suggest, would you be happy with your car sitting on the upper limit of the "normal" range?
No you wouldnt, neither should you be happy with it sitting on the lower limit.

They all SHOULD be the same, some are obviously just left with the fault because the engines still running so theres no great worry even though the engine will not be running at optimum performance.

The variation you describe Taliban IS what we used to see on older cars running viscous fans BUT it should NOT happen on a Scorpio or any newer car with electric cooling fans and very strictly regulated engine temperature.

My old 93 transit drops to quarter whens the stat opens and will rise to about 5/8 ths before it opens again, now i dont know the temperatures involved and it may be that the gauge on the Transit uses a finer scale than the Scorpio and highlights the difference more but i reckon its just not as efficiently controlled.

Engine temperature has a huge effect on engine performance and efficiency and although a cold running engine may appear ok it will be running rich.

I have spent many hours with obd watching engine temperature and it is maintained within very tight limits by the fans and the stat.

Also my 2004 motorbike will stay within a 3 degree range no matter what the external temperature or how ever hard it gets thrashed ;)

So yes it used to happen on older vehicles but it shouldnt happen on any Scorpio

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 24^th, 2007, 9:53pm

'But if they drop below halfway then they are out of the set tolerance so there IS a problem.'

wrong, well, according to ford themselves thats wrong, it says so on your dahboard and in fords handbook;

'at normal operating temerature the needle remains within the central section'

all engines will run at slightly different temps due to servicing history, oil changes, mileage etc etc.

out of interest, what bike you got?

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 24^th, 2007, 10:45pm

A fireblade

Yep agreed thats what they say in the manual BUT as I said before, would you be happy with your car running just under the upper limit of the "normal" range?? no because you would know something wasnt right..

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by harry.m1byt on Dec 24^th, 2007, 10:58pm

on 12/24/07 at 21:53:22, taliban aka Cheekyboy2 wrote:

wrong, well, according to ford themselves thats wrong, it says so on your dahboard and in fords handbook;

'at normal operating temerature the needle remains within the central section'

I think what they (Ford) are saying is that there is some room for tolerance in both the stat, the sensor and the gauge. In other words not all Scorpios will show precisely the same temperature on the gauge once they are up to operating temperature.

The point is to be aware of where it normally settles and notice any variation as a possible problem. Mine settles precisely on the mid point, needle perfectly horizontal very quickly and never,ever budges - regardless of how hard I drive it or how hot or cold the weather is.

Should that normal behaviour change, then I would start looking for a problem with the stat, the gauge, the sender, or the cooling system itself.

Quote:

all engines will run at slightly different temps due to servicing history, oil changes, mileage etc etc.

I agree, but that will be the engines temperature rather than the cooling system temperature - the engine temperature will depend upon where in the engine the measurement is taken. The gauge shows the carefully controlled cooling system temperature, at the point where the water exits the engine.

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 24^th, 2007, 11:43pm

it would depend on why its running in the upper reaches of normal i.e. am i sat in traffic on the m25 on a hot summers day.

ah yes deja vu, fireblade, you never had the fans come on at i think 107 degrees is the temp they come on on the blade while you're queing to get into a race meet?
i see it every year, especially wsb at brands, bikes starting to overheat no matter what make/model because its 85 degrees and they've been sat in traffic for 30 minutes, then they hit the open road and down comes the temp. the honda vtr range is reknowned for such heating probs when used in traffic i.e. commuting due to the side mounted rads not getting the same cooling air flow as front mounted rads.
anyway, enough now, merry xmas all........ ;D

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 25^th, 2007, 12:07am

If your Scorpio temp guage was sitting at the top of the normal limit while you were sitting on the M25 on a really hot day THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT!

My bike fans DO come on to keep the temp regulated and it DOES have a front mounted radiator not a side one...

I think you're just trying to wind me up you know ;)

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE ;D

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by harry.m1byt on Dec 25^th, 2007, 7:25am

Merry Christmas all :)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by jonnycab on Dec 26^th, 2007, 2:33am

I hope everyone had a great Christmas Day :)

I've been reading this post & had to add....hope you all don't mind ;)

Normal operating temperature is bang in the middle of the guage....any deviation from the middle when the car is at normal operating temp means there is a fault somewhere in the cooling system, or maybe with a sensor (ECT, temp guage sender), even the fan relay ? ......but most likely a cooling system fault :)

Once warmed up, the temp should stay slap bang in the middle whether in town or on the motorway....if it moves up or down, then it's as this very long post suggests......possibly £15 for a new T-stat from FMD :)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 26^th, 2007, 10:48pm

'I think you're just trying to wind me up you know '

pmsl

gawd, you've drawn me back when i wandered off lol

1. sat on the m25 'car park' on a hot day....i wouldnt blame any car for running a tad on the hot side, the driver will be...

2. i never said your bike had side mounted rads, yours is a standard inline four with front rad, like mine, i was talking about the vtr range, hondas poor attempt at catching up with ducati, aprilia, in the v twin market.

3. the scorp is not a modern car as someone suggested, it was released nearly 13 years ago and apart from the diesel having engine improvements i dont think the petrol versions were altered. now bear in mind how long the car was on the design board (someone here is sure too know, i dont), possibly the engine too (i dont know if the engine was brand new or just improved from previous models), that makes the engine a minimum of 13 years old and probably anything up to 20 years old in design.

p.s. whats the honda gearbox like now? i remember they were reknowned for having boxes that felt like they were made from lumps of victorian brass....

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by Highlander on Dec 27^th, 2007, 6:03pm

I give up! ;D

Theres an old old proverb from somewhere that says if six people tell you you're sick... Lie down... ;)

Title: Re: Slow warm up ?
Post by taliban aka Cheekyboy2 on Dec 27^th, 2007, 6:44pm

not that im stubborn or anything...... 8)