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Topic: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start (Read 16479 times) |
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victor.
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Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« on: Apr 3rd, 2014, 4:58am » |
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Hi,
My Ford Scorpio 2.3 (1997) sometimes cannot start (starter run but engine cannot start). When this situation occurs, if I take (-) wire of battery off and on, then I can immediately start the engine. I think it is PATS problem. To take off battery reset the ECU/PWM system.
It is raining season now and to take off battery's wire within raining is danger. If anyone know how to bypass the PATS system?
Thank you.
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #1 on: Apr 3rd, 2014, 10:06am » |
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Does not sound like PATS from your description.
I pm'd you, PATS cannot be removed or bypassed.
Is the PATS LED flashing a code?
When you switch on the LED should come on steady then extinguish after a few seconds, if it does that there is no problem with PATS.
If it comes on then goes out and then starts flashing say 6 times, stop then 6 times etc then that is code 6 and there is a problem.
Code numbers are Here 
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #2 on: Apr 3rd, 2014, 3:36pm » |
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Thank you for replies.
If I turn the key to "on" pos., there usually is a 1:6 code and then trun key to "run" pos. the engine still start. But sometime there is no 1:6 code and the engine cannot start. Sometime there is 1:6 code and the engine cannot start.
I got a simple OBD2 and it said "no error code saved in ECU".
Regards
Victor
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Dave2302
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #3 on: Apr 3rd, 2014, 6:14pm » |
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OBD reader will not pull PATS codes.
1:6 means faulty communication between PATS Module and ECU, probably dodgy connection, I'd be looking at possible water ingress into Fuse Boxes, and check PATS module plug and look for signs of water.
Module is behind glove box.
HTH Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #4 on: Apr 3rd, 2014, 10:51pm » |
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It depends on what code reader you have, a stand alone one is unlikely to read PATS, however a cheap ELM327 that plugs into a laptop should read PATS codes using Forscan software from http://forscan.org/
There are a lot of extremely cheap ELM327 readers on Ebay but if you search the net you'll find some have problems with some cars.
Out of interest I bought a really cheap wireless one from Amazon for about £6.00 – It came from China and could read PATS, ABS, CCM & PCM using the Forscan software (it couldn’t read them all using the rubbish software it came with).
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #5 on: Apr 4th, 2014, 12:42am » |
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Hi,
Thank you for sending me useful information.
I will pull PATS out and check wire and pinout interface.
My OBD2 is ELM327. I will try "forscan" software later.
By the way, could anyone know the function (defination) of pinout used by EECV and PATS (the module on top of EECV). I think my EECV use C402 pinout (learned from www.fordscorpio.co.uk). I cannot find their defination.
Thank you.
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gozz
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #6 on: Apr 4th, 2014, 9:39am » |
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The module above the ECU is the central control module,the PATS is in a steel cage lower down to the right,and is not intended to be easily removable,in fact it is d**ned difficult.As Dave says best to start with the ECU plug,it is extremely unlikely that the PATS unit itself has been contaminated,or indeed that it has become faulty,but water can enter near the ECU and that area can suffer.
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #7 on: Apr 6th, 2014, 4:10pm » |
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Hi,
The same situation occurred yesterday (starter run but engine cannot start). I pulled pinout of ECU off and on but engine still could not start. Then, as usual, I taked battery off and on then engine immediately started.
As Tompion's suggestion, I use Forscan (http://forscan.org/) to connect my ELM327 (OBD2) device. I got some error codes which are not shown by another software "Torque". "Torque" got nothing in error code from my ELM327 in this case.
However, all of my power windows are work fine but Forscan shown some Power Window Motor Circuit Failure.
My question is that if I try to fix some problem of car, do I need to clear the error code stored in ECU/PAST and then rescan again? Or (without clear action) Forscan always read current state of error code? That is, the error codes readed from Forscan are history or current error code?
Forscan got following error codes:
/*********************************/
===DTC U1147===
Code: U1147 - There is a problem with the communications link between the PATS and the PCM. Use DMM to check the communications link wiring.
Module: Passive Anti-Theft System
===END DTC U1147===
===DTC B1551===
Code: B1551 - Liftgate release circuit short to ground
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B1551===
===DTC B2108===
Code: B2108 - Antitheft inhibit switch failure
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B2108===
===DTC B2128===
Code: B2128 - Central Lock Motor Failure
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B2128===
===DTC B1676===
Code: B1676 - Battery Voltage out of range
Module: Generic Electronic Module
Diagnostic Trouble Code details
Battery Voltage out of range
This code may have been set by either the use of a booster charger or a charging system fault. Use Datalogger to check the charging system voltage.
===END DTC B1676===
===DTC B1677===
Code: B1677 - Alarm Panic Input Circuit Failure
Module: Generic Electronic Module
Diagnostic Trouble Code details
Alarm Panic Input Circuit Failure
===END DTC B1677===
===DTC B2212===
Code: B2212 - Panel Dim Switch Out of Range
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B2212===
===DTC B1414===
Code: B1414 - Power Window Left Rear Motor Circuit Failure
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B1414===
===DTC B1418===
Code: B1418 - Passenger Power Window Motor Circuit Failure
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B1418===
===DTC B1422===
Code: B1422 - Power Window Right Rear Motor Circuit Failure
Module: Generic Electronic Module
===END DTC B1422===
===DTC C1095===
Code: C1095 - Pump Motor Circuit Failure
Module: Anti-Lock Brake / Traction Control Module
Diagnostic Trouble Code details
Pump Motor Circuit Failure
This code is set when the hydraulic pump motor has an open, short to ground or battery.
This DTC may be caused by :
Low voltage to the module.
Damaged or contaminated connector
===END DTC C1095===
===DTC B1676===
Code: B1676 - Battery Voltage out of range
Module: Anti-Lock Brake / Traction Control Module
===END DTC B1676===
/**********************************/
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #8 on: Apr 6th, 2014, 4:39pm » |
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I would clear the codes & see what comes back as some may be old, other people may not agree. You can clear all with Forscan or just ABS etc.
I always have (Body code) B1551 - Liftgate release circuit short to ground & about 3 others – I don’t think the ones I get are a fault as such, at a guess I think they may be down to me locking the car before closing the boot & sometimes it taking a couple of goes before the car locks.
Low battery could cause problems.
Is the ABS light staying on? If not the (Chassis code)C1095 is likely an old one (or intermittent).
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Jonnycab
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Former owner of 2.3 Ultima Facelift saloon
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #9 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 3:09am » |
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I may have been away from this forum for a while....but I still remember snippits of information & problems that I had with my 2.3
Considering the age of the car & assuming that it is reasonably high mileage, I would suggest that the engine (fuel cut off) wiring loom may be the culprit of your woes & the cause of the issues you are experiencing
Have a look at the loom where it goes to the coil packs & have a really good look at where the loom goes to the ECT, temp gauge, IAT sensors & then down (front of the inlet manifold) to the crankshaft sensor & oil pressure sensor
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #10 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 7:54am » |
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Hi
I use Forscan to clear the error codes and re-scan when car is fine. This time I got only one code P1000.
I will check it again when the engine cannot start.
I will check loom wirng later.
Thank you for suggestion.
===DTC P1000===
Code: P1000 - On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) Systems Readiness Test Not Complete
Module: Powertrain Control Module
Diagnostic Trouble Code details
Check of all systems is not complete since last memory clear.
--Possible Causes--
- The vehicle is new from the factory and has not yet been through a complete OBD Drive Cycle.
- The battery or PCM has been disconnected.
- An OBD monitor failure had occurred prior to completion of an OBD Drive Cycle.
- The PCM DTCs have been cleared as part of a service process.
Note: The only way P1000 can be cleared (removed) from memory is when all of the OBD monitors have been successfully completed during normal vehicle operation.
P1000 cannot be cleared from the PCM when: 1. The thermostat is stuck open and a DTC is not generated. 2. There is an open VSS circuit and a DTC is not generated. 3. If the vehicle has a Power Take Off (PTO), the circuit is shorted to VPWR or B+, or the PTO is ON during Self-test.
The purpose of the Diagnostic Trouble Code DTC P1000 is to indicate that not all of the On Board Diagnostics OBD monitors have yet been successfully completed. To clear P1000 in the shortest amount of time, follow the link to the OBD Drive Cycle. If the link is unavailable, the OBD Drive Cycle can also be found under Toolbox. You may also refer to the OBD Drive Cycle defined under the Powertrain Control/Emission Diagnosis Manual-Diagnostic Methods or the Owner's Manual.
Remember: It is not necessary to remove P1000 from the Powertrain Control Module PCM by driving the vehicle unless it is requested by the customer to pass an inspection/maintenance test. Inform the customer of the need for additional driving when legally required to pass an inspection/maintenance test.
===END DTC P1000===
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #11 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 8:29am » |
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Pin 21 PATS goes to pin 16 ECU
Pin 22 PATS goes to pin 15 ECU
These 2 wires are the SCP Protocol com line, and also Tee off to other modules such as CCM etc so you can read codes and program
HTH
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #12 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 12:34pm » |
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Check all earth wires are in place at the battery. Mine has 4 wires in total, 2 to the main connector & 2 to another connector.
I believe people have had one slip under the battery or whatever making a bad earth - possibly remaking when you disturb the battery.
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #13 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 3:50pm » |
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Hi Jonnycab,
Good point. I will check loom later.
Hi Tompion,
Thank you for suggestion.
I checked my earth line. There are four earth lines.
Do you know how to solve error code P1000?
Hi Dave and Gozz,
So, the module top on PCM/EEC-V is CCM. The PATS is located on right of EEC-V?
Thank you.
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #14 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 4:07pm » |
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P1000 isn’t a problem, it just means the engine hasn't relearned the values of the sensors under various driving conditions. It will clear after driving once all the conditions have been met. It would have been there each time you disconnected the battery – you just didn’t know it.
From your previous post:
"Note: The only way P1000 can be cleared (removed) from memory is when all of the OBD monitors have been successfully completed during normal vehicle operation."
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #15 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 4:17pm » |
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Here's details on the drive cycle:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/drivecycle.htm
Normal driving will do it as long as all sensors are OK & the engine is up to temperature.
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #16 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 4:57pm » |
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Hi Tompion,
Thank you for reply.
I will try drive cycle later.
By the way, Scorpio is a good car, but water hole under the battery causes problems. Months ago, water flowed into car from this area.
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Tompion
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1997 2.3 Ultima estate.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #17 on: Apr 7th, 2014, 6:13pm » |
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It’s not uncommon for water to enter the inside of the car where the fusebox wires enter & get on the connections of the electronics causing problems with the engine. If you’ve had water in that’s quite likely where the problem lies. I assume you have a battery cover fitted.
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victor.
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #18 on: Apr 8th, 2014, 1:30am » |
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Hi,
Yes, my battery cover still stays there.
Now, P1000 code is cleared. There are no code in DTC section of "Forscan". I did some tests in TESTS section of "Forscan". In item "Key On Engine Running On Demand Self-Test" of TESTS section, I got Code P1703 - Brake Switch Out of Self Test Range". I think that is a minor problem.
I take some picture of CCM and EECV.
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Dave2302
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2006 Mercedes S55 AMG, Retired Barefoot Waterskier
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Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start
« Reply #19 on: Apr 8th, 2014, 5:44pm » |
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They look OK, but problem will not be in CCM anyway, it has no interaction with PATS, nor does burglar alarm functions, apart from sharing the same LED.................
You can remove CCM from car and it will still start
Cheers Dave
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Dave "The 'ol Bear" ex Footer !
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